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Regarding numbered NY seedling releases....
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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
(Offline)
1
February 17, 2024 - 4:56 pm

I guess this was the time to post my whatever, after reading an earlier post about "the Botner orchard" and a numbered seedling from the NY hybridization program.

At one of my first 2 or 3 fruit tastings after joining the HOS (--and this was probably some 15-18 years ago--), I tasted a numbered NY apple that was definitely something that I wanted to get.  I can't find the pocket notebook where I rated the apples that I sampled so I don't know the number.  I just know that it was an apple that "I just had to have."  Subsequently, I acquired Botner's list of available scionwood.  That numbered clone wasn't on there.  Someone contributed those apples to the HOS autumn fruit tasting!  But who?  My supposition is still that it was Nick Botner.  Is it a clone that's been lost?

Early-on, when I was getting interested in apple varieties, I checked out the National Germplasm collection for apples.  I think that it was that first time that I went to the site when I found an Edict from a woman who apparently was involved in the New York apple breeding program.  She mandated that apples from the NY breeding program could no longer be sent to private individuals, only institutions.

This has always led me to wonder whether this had something to do with someone in western Washington growing a numbered NY seedling and then, without consulting the NY program, naming the clone and basically "releasing it".  ...That was 'Wynoochee Early' .

I don't know what to think about the matter.

Reinettes.

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John S
PDX OR
2817 Posts
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2
February 19, 2024 - 9:18 am

I could see why NY ag would be upset at someone making money off of their generosity.  I have heard that they don't really care if someone is sharing a scion with a friend, but making money off of it, is another question, and they will protect that.  Trying to do that makes it so they want to stop the private sharing, so I don't like it.   At the same time, I've heard from others that Wynoochee Early is a good apple for around here. 

I don't know which number you tasted or how to find out which it is.

John S
PDX OR

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
(Offline)
3
February 21, 2024 - 3:54 pm

John,

Yes, I too understand that 'Wynoochee Early' is a very tasty, early-ripening apple.  I have it grafted, but it is still too young to flower and fruit.  I'm looking forward to it though.

I would think that if someone had a numbered seedling from the NY breeding program, they'd at least have the courtesy to contact the breeders and get some kind of permission, or approval, to name and "release" a hybrid that they themselves did not produce.  It merely seems a "common-sense" thing to do in a rational society.

...As my wife and I go through re-organizing things in our house, I hope to find that notebook and get that NY apple's number again.  Before I got married 35 years ago, I knew where all "my stuff" was.  I can rarely find anything any more that I "used to know where it was".  Gawd, I still love her as much as ever, but I still wish I could find "my stuff" when I used to know where it was.... Smile

Reinettes.

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GH
Battle Ground, WA
129 Posts
(Offline)
4
February 21, 2024 - 8:54 pm

That's a new one for me, concerning Wynoochee Early.  I bought it in 2016 because it's a summer apple, and it usually starts ripening around the third week of August in my orchard.  Last year all of the apple trees were two to three weeks late in flowering, and Wynoochee Early apples didn't start ripening until the first week or so of September.  It fully cropped, the apples were crisp and nicely textured, but the flavor was not there, so I used them mainly for baking.  Usually the apples have a great texture and flavor, especially for a summer apple.  It is very disease resistant, is an annual producer, and has been an easy tree to enjoy.  Aside from last year's bland flavor, it has been a great tree.  

That's disturbing news, finding out that someone stole the tree and then made money from it.  It is definitely not an ethical way to live.  On the flip side, and certainly not a rationale for making money on something that isn't yours, I wonder what the New York breeding program did with their "Wynoochee Early" and if it was ever released by them.  If not, this tree probably would have been lost - not the end of the world, but still a sad thought.

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Dannytoro1
53 Posts
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5
February 23, 2024 - 6:36 am

Bottner had a selection of Scab resistant apples Geneva/Cornell specifically released just for apple breeders on a non-patented basis. Supposed to be free and available for everyone. I forget there were 9 varieties in that group. I emailed with some Apple Breeders out there who tried to rescue the cultivars and transfer them to the Alamty Farms/TOC collection. However many had died by then, and only 2 of the grouping remained.

I would wager the one you enjoyed so much was in fact NY-75413-30. A highly scab resistant cultivar. That fruits a fair amount  parthenocarpy stunted fruit. Many large and very tasty apples if stored. And some very gigantic apples of good quality.

Northstar Fruit has it and is growing it as a crop. They call it "Royalty" for the normal large. And "Evil Queen" for the giant ones. He will not donate back to TOC or sell it for love or money. 

Also a breeder in Europe has it; and just used it to produce one of the hot trendy "Club" apples. Kizura. They too are not sharing the free and open access cultivar.

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John S
PDX OR
2817 Posts
(Offline)
6
February 23, 2024 - 4:32 pm

Is this the list you're looking for?

>                 Ultimately, I hope this list decodes some of the incredible diversity held in Nick’s orchard.  More than a few times, when people would come to gather scion wood or buy a tree, they were overwhelmed by the amount of choices.  I understand this because a large part of Nick’s orchard is made up of rare apples.  So I offer this list to anyone seeking apples that have proven to be highly disease resistant in western Oregon.  The information following each variety is the location of the tree in the orchard.  For example, N.Y. 74840-1 is located in the green section, in row four, number five.
>
> GREEN SECTION
>
> N.Y. 74840-1 (Row 4, # 5)
>
> N.Y. 75441-67 (Row 4, # 21)
>
> Reinette Grise Du Canada (Row 4, # 46)
>
> Co-Op 12 (Row 5, # 7)
>
> Transparent De Croncels (Row 5, # 15)
>
> Mela Carla (Row 5, # 20)
>
> Type-2 (Row 7, #4)
>
> Sundance ‘Co-Op 29’ (Row 12, #14)
>
> Novaspy (Row 12, # 17)
>
> D 1497 (Row 14, # 8)
>
> Zlatna Resistenta (Row 17, # 17)
>
> BLUE SECTION
>
> Erwin Bauer (Row 3, # 1)
>
> Starr (Row 4, # 89)
>
> Porter’s Perfection (Row 6, #12)
>
> MacShay (Row 6, #14)
>

John S
PDX OR

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
(Offline)
7
February 23, 2024 - 6:22 pm

Thanks for the additional information!  The specific NY apple will have to wait until our house gets better organized.  My wife swears it will be after "a project or two...".  I think that the NY clone started with a 74..., but I'd be fooling myself if I thought I could remember it.  My brain hates numbers (--other than pi, and I have ambiguous feelings about that).

John -- on the list you posted, I was wondering whether the 'Reinette Grise du Canada' is the 'Reinette Grise' that I got at an HOS distribution but perhaps someone shortened the name for convenience (--even though there is more than 1 'Reinette Grise' clone, and they are not the same clone).  The HOS 'Reinette Grise' that I have has produced a few fruits and it's a favorite.  I just wish I could be sure of the clonal identity.  I know that there was at least one HOS clone that I got which turned out to be misidentified, but I'd also noticed people pulling out a scion, looking at it, then putting it back into the wrong container.

[This is perhaps irrelevant, but it reminds me of an HOS memory that always makes me smile to myself.  At one of the dispersals I was around the "A" apple cultivars.  I think that I was looking for a rare 'Pearmain" variety.  Next to me was an elderly man with his wife standing behind him.  He'd look around the varieties in front of him, pull up a scion of 'Arkansas Black', study it, and then hand it back to his wife, who would put it in her purse.  Then, he'd continue "studying" the varieties before him, find his way back to the "Arkansas Black', study it, then hand it back to his wife who would dutifully tuck it into her purse.  This happened at least 4 times while I patiently stood there pretending to look for the variety that I already knew wasn't there.  Anyway, I wasn't going to fink on this guy.  I imagine that he must have loved 'Arkansas Black' apples all his life and wanted to grow his own orchard of eden....  Makes me smile every time I think of it!]

Reinettes.

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katmendeux
45 Posts
(Offline)
8
February 24, 2024 - 7:47 am

Hi All,

A little more on the Wynochee Early. I got interested in this variety a while back. With a name like "Wynochee,"  I thought it might be a Northwest original, and I wanted to know its history. As you already know, it came out of the Geneva program. It was a cross of a Macoun with a Purdue 54-12. They numbered it “55140-9.” The famous Bob Norton from WSU Extension brought it to the NW, and added it to the test orchard at Mt. Vernon. He was looking for disease resistant apples for commercial orchards in the maritime Northwest. At the test orchard, 55140-0 grew well and had nice apples. They were scab-resistant, but the apples had thin skin that bruised easily and they got ripe in drips and drabs, which was bad for commercial growers. Bob moved on to other apples.

Meanwhile, over in Montesano, nurseryman Howard Hughes tested it. It rains and rains in Montesano, and his area is rife with apple scab. Where other apples were a mess, the New York apple was healthy. He thought that it might be good for backyard orchards, and he started selling it as "Wynochee Early." Sometime later, Grays Harbor County Extension Agent Dick Moulton recommended it for backyard growers. Raintree and the now defunct Northwoods nurseries started selling it.

I got one of them last spring. It was surprised to see it at a local hardware store in their cheapo fruit trees department. Decent looking tree, and it was half-price. Am hoping for apples next year.

Cheers, katmendeux, feeling a little wonky this morning

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jafar
770 Posts
(Offline)
9
February 24, 2024 - 12:39 pm

It needs a name to sell.  The repositories support commercial development, and I think for free.  I don't really see a fundamental problem with getting germplasm for which there weren't plans, and treating it as a selection if warranted, without patent or trademark.

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Dannytoro1
53 Posts
(Offline)
10
February 24, 2024 - 7:00 pm

Reinettes said
Thanks for the additional information!  The specific NY apple will have to wait until our house gets better organized.  My wife swears it will be after "a project or two...".  I think that the NY clone started with a 74..., but I'd be fooling myself if I thought I could remember it.  My brain hates numbers (--other than pi, and I have ambiguous feelings about that).

John -- on the list you posted, I was wondering whether the 'Reinette Grise du Canada' is the 'Reinette Grise' that I got at an HOS distribution but perhaps someone shortened the name for convenience (--even though there is more than 1 'Reinette Grise' clone, and they are not the same clone).  The HOS 'Reinette Grise' that I have has produced a few fruits and it's a favorite.  I just wish I could be sure of the clonal identity.  I know that there was at least one HOS clone that I got which turned out to be misidentified, but I'd also noticed people pulling out a scion, looking at it, then putting it back into the wrong container.

[This is perhaps irrelevant, but it reminds me of an HOS memory that always makes me smile to myself.  At one of the dispersals I was around the "A" apple cultivars.  I think that I was looking for a rare 'Pearmain" variety.  Next to me was an elderly man with his wife standing behind him.  He'd look around the varieties in front of him, pull up a scion of 'Arkansas Black', study it, and then hand it back to his wife, who would put it in her purse.  Then, he'd continue "studying" the varieties before him, find his way back to the "Arkansas Black', study it, then hand it back to his wife who would dutifully tuck it into her purse.  This happened at least 4 times while I patiently stood there pretending to look for the variety that I already knew wasn't there.  Anyway, I wasn't going to fink on this guy.  I imagine that he must have loved 'Arkansas Black' apples all his life and wanted to grow his own orchard of eden....  Makes me smile every time I think of it!]

Reinettes.

  

You can search out Bottner's old inventory and see the full list of his NY series apples. Over a dozen types I think.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
(Offline)
11
February 26, 2024 - 3:01 pm

Hello Fellow Forumites,,

I love the diversity of feedback given to an issue!

Kat -- The information that you gave regarding the background of 'Wynoochee Early' is far more than anything I'd have been able to dig up.  The fact of the matter is that, with the countless number of regional climates and smaller "microclimates", there will be some that perform best in one area and poorly in another area, given the incredible diversity available in apple varieties and hybrids.  Apparently, out of thousands of seedlings, that particular clone found its niche in coastal Cascadia.  Who'da thought?  You've got yours; I've got mine.  Perhaps one of ours will do better than the other.  [I'm betting that yours will. Wink]

Danny -- I didn't know that there was a "database" of Nick Bottner's vast orchard collection.  I have a physical list that I received from him quite some years ago, but I know that he was always acquiring more!  I believe that -- for the love of fruit -- Nick was a Patron Saint.  However, I think there's already a "St. Nick".  May Nick rest in peace!

Reinettes.

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John S
PDX OR
2817 Posts
(Offline)
12
February 26, 2024 - 9:03 pm

Here is the list of disease free apples from Nick Botner's orchard in a link, if someone prefers that:

https://docs.google.com/docume.....38;sd=true

John S
PDX OR

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katmendeux
45 Posts
(Offline)
13
February 27, 2024 - 3:34 pm

Hi John,

Worthy effort, but when I clicked on the link, I got a "Error 401 -- Unauthorized" message. Drat! So near but yet so far...

Could you please try posting it again?

Thanks, katmendeux

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Dannytoro1
53 Posts
(Offline)
14
February 27, 2024 - 4:19 pm

Here are more detailed descriptions of the NY Series scab resistant releases. Many that Bottner had.

 

https://www.uvm.edu/~orchard/f.....pdate.html

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John S
PDX OR
2817 Posts
(Offline)
15
February 28, 2024 - 6:19 pm

Sorry, I'm not that great at technology. It should work now. Jafar tried to help me. Let me know if it doesn't:

https://docs.google.com/docume.....38;sd=true

John S
PDX OR

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jafar
770 Posts
(Offline)
16
February 29, 2024 - 12:56 pm

I think you got it John.

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katmendeux
45 Posts
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17
February 29, 2024 - 1:04 pm

Dannytoro and John,

Thank you, so much! I want to dig into the attachments you both posted, and see what I can find out about these apples. Almost all of them are new to me. I'm thinking there might be some real treasures among them. I'll keep you posted on what I find.

Cheers, kat, dreaming of perfect apples

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
(Offline)
18
February 29, 2024 - 5:19 pm

Kat,

Please pardon my potential ignorant rudeness in asking this question, but do you have a degree in library sciences or something similar, or are you "just" one of those people who has an interest and just goes "all out" to learn ever more?

Just a dumb question, but I envision you as having a vast repository of references of every sort.  

Innocent question from someone who may be somewhere on the autism scale. Smile

Reinettes.

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katmendeux
45 Posts
(Offline)
19
March 1, 2024 - 9:39 am

Reinettes,

Married to a librarian, but not one myself. He and I were once described as "two peas in a pod." Can't really argue with that. Several years back, we had the good fortune to visit London. One of our top picks: The British Library. It rocked. It's just who we are. Another pick: big British ciders, yum! BTW, I do not take me seriously. Hope you don't, either.

I've been interested in plants since forever, even when I was a kid. Apples have long been an special interest. My mom was from Wenatchee. She grew up around fruit - her g-father had an orchard. When she said something was "really good," she was right. I thought all moms knew about fruit, and could identify varieties and how to use them. Since then, I keep finding more and more interesting apples to learn about.

Maybe I've come across as more wonky than I really am. I like regular stuff, too. Right now, I'm waiting for baseball season. Since the Mariners are already out of the playoffs (they always find a way), I'm a minor-league fan. Go Aqua-Sox!

Cheers, kat

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
(Offline)
20
March 4, 2024 - 6:05 pm

Kat,

I got a great kick out of your response.  At least I perceived some "librarianism" in there!  So very nice to get some of your background!

...And then you had to rub it in: ... You and your husband went to the British Library in London, and then, were "forced" to deal with British Ciders!  The two of you have lived some of the parts of one of my many dreams.  Congratulations!  

Reinettes. Laugh

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