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More biochar for some fruit trees?
persimmons, paw paws, biochar
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John S
PDX OR
2874 Posts
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1
July 26, 2023 - 7:56 pm

I have noticed for decades that my pawpaw trees seem to suffer when we get lots of dry heat and not any rain in the summer.  I water them and they look better.  Then I    biocharred it and it doesn't seem to be suffering in the summer like it used to. 

I noticed that my Garretson persimmon wasn't producing much, so I gave it much more biochar. Now it's producing like gangbusters again. Biochar can retain 6 times its volume in water, so that makes sense as an anecdote.

I grafted another new Garretson persimmon and it seems to be suffering in the drought.  I'm giving it extra water now, but I think I"ll give it extra biochar to see if it helps.

My Szukis persimmon looks to be suffering from too much drought. When I give it extra water, it looks happy again.  I think I"ll give it extra biochar. 

My H-118 Prairie Star persimmon had lost all of its fruit in the last couple of years due to high heat and no rain.  I'm watering it more now, but I'm going to try to give it extra biochar to see if it can retain its water and fruit.

Pawpaws and American persimmons (all persimmons, actually) are native to rainy summer climates. It makes sense that they wouldn't be used to dry summer heat like we get on the West Coast. 

Has anyone else noticed effects like this?
JOhn S
PDX OR

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Chris M
Philomath, OR
168 Posts
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2
July 27, 2023 - 9:34 am

John,

Do you buy the biochar or make it yourself? I have a fair bit of limbs fall down each year and I wonder if making the biochar with the wood is worth it.

 

Chris

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John S
PDX OR
2874 Posts
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3
July 28, 2023 - 10:15 pm

I make it myself.  It has made a very big difference in some of my trees.  It's way worth it to me.  This is the video that convinced me I could do it.  YOu may have acreage, in which case you could use other techniques too.

list=PLy9hFdI8EDMmQDvG_bqHQcc2nkr2INqf8

John S
PDX OR

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Chris M
Philomath, OR
168 Posts
(Offline)
4
July 29, 2023 - 7:35 am

Fascinating John, do you charge the biochar before using it, or just go for it?

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John S
PDX OR
2874 Posts
(Offline)
5
July 29, 2023 - 7:51 am

I recommend that anyone crush it and then charge it.  I think that a lot more people could benefit from doing this.

 

For more details, check out

https://permies.com/f/190/biochar

John S
PDX OR

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
805 Posts
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6
August 3, 2023 - 10:02 am

I find John's crop improvements fascinating too.

Science is starting to find how this works and on a closer level while experimenting with tomato plants. Scientists view the turning of specialized genes that are associated with hosting the beneficial fungi in the earth.

This picture here is hosted inside phys dot org. The top control is tomato. The very active in the top middle is Wheat Straw (WSB). The inactive in the top right is Chicken Manure (CMB), which should be avoided when charging biochars because it suppresses plant immunity, which I think correlates (as in John S persimmons) to plant fertility.

Clicking on the physical dot org image will land you on the article.

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John S
PDX OR
2874 Posts
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7
August 3, 2023 - 11:17 am

Interesting ideas, Rooney.

It's definitely phys.org, not physical .org. I searched for the article on there and I couldn't find it.

I often use chicken bones in my biochar, but not chicken manure. I have read where a small percentage of bone is good for the biochar.

John S
PDX OR

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
805 Posts
(Offline)
8
August 3, 2023 - 3:34 pm

I meant for you to click on the picture using some physical effort that invokes your hand, mouse, and the image I placed in the above.

The article when you get there indicates a controversy between phosphates in priming biochar and not having phosphates which you will see when you get there. And like I said before it's going to be interesting to see if the experimental results will eventually show us if this withholding of phosphates applies more than just to tomato plants. It is even plausible that this benefit relates to better selfing abilities (ie. fertility).

This is the same Phys dot org article

I acknowledge the part on my side from before that caused this misunderstanding. Sorry.

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John S
PDX OR
2874 Posts
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9
August 3, 2023 - 4:03 pm

Thanks Rooney,

I got it now.  This is actually partially pretty well known about phosphorus.  It makes sense that the fungi will not develop an extensive system if they're living in a phosphorus rich environment.  They'll put their efforts elsewhere. I like the connection between immunity and phosphorus though.  I don't think Ive ever seen that.  I love how the biochar supports the mycorrhizae to set up this positive system. 

 

John S
PDX OR

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
805 Posts
(Offline)
10
July 22, 2024 - 3:00 pm

20240722_112923.jpg

That's John. I caught him by surprise while I was on that side of the woods. It looks like he mastered making what he posted last year (above post-3). I've read nothing but great things regarding Biochar. I think there is only one negative, but only short term, that if you use concentrated Biochar out of softwoods then the PH is very high and holds negative consequences (in the short term) for plants in pots having to do with a lack of nitrogen. That's all they really seem to know as all the other benefits are still shrouded in this still pretty big shroud of mystery about it. Smile

Congradulations!

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John S
PDX OR
2874 Posts
(Offline)
11
July 23, 2024 - 9:18 am

I read the opposite. That hardwoods make the ph too high, so softwoods like conifers were recommended.  Our typical soils here are very acidic.  Most would be improved by getting closer to 6-7.

It might be good to check that. I could be wrong.

Who is that fat guy in the picture?

John S
PDX OR

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
805 Posts
(Offline)
12
July 23, 2024 - 11:57 am

Well I didn't comb through enough background to know for this for sure. It was only wrote for basically potted greenhouse plants that would concern profitability in the first year. The appropriate link I went by is the one I'm pasting here about the first year warning signs and this was not any large enough funded example to stand up anyways.

Possible risks associated with potting with lots of Biochar

Sorry for the surprise picture. You get around the same as I've always known you, but feeling a bit disappointed for not planning this visit with you. This is really the only summer in many spent in Washington. I had to be here gathering my pollination crosses. The apricots were not hand pollinated. The most interesting of all crosses for me this year are high takes of japanese ornamental cherry (from diploid plants) on the male side to peunte/adara plum (also diploid). Who known if they will germinate though.

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John S
PDX OR
2874 Posts
(Offline)
13
July 23, 2024 - 2:02 pm

I finally figured out who the fat guy in the picture is.  I used to be skinny but I guess it just snacked up on me.

I agree with your article that a very large percentage of biochar in a pot is a bad idea. It's more like a culinary spice than the main meal.

I found this summary on google scholar:

Use of chemical and physical characteristics to investigate trends in biochar feedstocks

FND Mukome, X Zhang, LCR Silva, J Six… - Journal of agricultural …, 2013 - ACS Publications
… when compared to the wood biochars (BC … hardwood biochars will likely have a more basic
pH and higher mineral content resulting in increased soil pH, whereas the softwood biochars
 
This excerpt too: The hardwood jarrah biochar exhibits much higher microporosity, alkalinity and electrostatic capacity than the softwood pine. Correlation analysis and principal component analysis also show a good correlation between CEC–BET–alkalinity, and alkalinity–ash content.
 
It makes sense because conifers and coniferous forests are much more acidic to begin with, so the alkalinizing effects of the biochar would only move the ph so far in each one.
JohN S
PDX OR
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