Menu Close
Avatar
Log In
Please consider registering
Guest
Forum Scope






Start typing a member's name above and it will auto-complete

Match



Forum Options



Min search length: 3 characters / Max search length: 84 characters

Register Lost password?
sp_TopicIcon
Microsurgery techniques
Avatar
John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
(Offline)
1
March 22, 2019 - 7:12 pm

As in most years, I got some scions that were extremely skinny, so I had to find skinny rootstocks/branches.  I am more likely to cut through them, wasting the scion.  I also have broken some while putting the rubber band on.  This year, I put only parafilm on one of them and it seemed less likely to break.  I didn't put any goo over it.  Does anyone have special ideas or techniques for microsurgery grafting?

John S
PDX OR

Avatar
jafar
622 Posts
(Offline)
2
March 22, 2019 - 10:12 pm

John S said
As in most years, I got some scions that were extremely skinny, so I had to find skinny rootstocks/branches.  I am more likely to cut through them, wasting the scion.  I also have broken some while putting the rubber band on.  This year, I put only parafilm on one of them and it seemed less likely to break.  I didn't put any goo over it.  Does anyone have special ideas or techniques for microsurgery grafting?

John S
PDX OR  

Save the scion until the bark is slipping and do a bark graft instead.

It's the easiest, and even easier with thin scions.

Avatar
Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
684 Posts
(Offline)
3
March 22, 2019 - 10:37 pm

Hi John.

If the situation permits then Jafar's idea is well justified.

I have done grafting on things that were on either side of the joint too small for rubber bands. So I think you are in the right track with parafilm. I was testing wild blueberry stands in Alaska to see if our mountain huckleberry would work on them. I have never used the true parafilm but I found that other copycat brands differ in quality and the ease of stretchability. If your up this way sometime soon bring some of yours and we can compare with mine. Your message may suggest to omit the tongue which I would see as proper.

Avatar
jafar
622 Posts
(Offline)
4
March 25, 2019 - 11:47 pm

Rooney, if I remember I'll bring you some parafilm.  I bought more than I can use in a reasonable time and am thinking of switching to buddy tape anyway.  A thinner version of the same stuff.

Avatar
Viron
1400 Posts
(Offline)
5
March 26, 2019 - 5:24 am

Good light, magnification, and a sharp knife/ blade!  I’d do a micro whip & tongue graft, making sure (as best I could) the cambium was matched.  I’d also watch others do side grafts, though worried not enough of ‘the right stuff’ was being matched, and that it lacked support to maintain even temporary stability.    

If you’ve time (as mentioned above), allowing the bark to slip, then inserting the scion with one angled cut flush against the ‘wood,’ the cambial cells make a positive contact.  

I kept a hand handful of the smallest rubber grafting bands I’d found (maybe a quarter inch wide and very thin) on hand for delicate wraps.  Or just a little dab of Yellow Doc, or a gentle para-film 'fold over' would seal the connection.

It was generally obvious to all that tiny scions were an additional challenge with a lesser degree of success than optimal sized material.  I’d explain that, and if folks were willing to take the additional chance, so was I Wink

Avatar
Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
684 Posts
(Offline)
6
March 26, 2019 - 7:04 am

Jafar: The buddy tape "is" the brand that I had made reference to as the better for. I have it with plenty to spare. If you have the original brand then we could trade and weigh in later. (PM me)

Viron: I agree about good light. I did the blue to huckle conversion at mid day in full sun. I am not against magnification, but with lots of previous experience I find I can make up the difference with-out having to use any glasses or magnification.

PS. the huckleberry scions pushed but the test failed only due to the power company's decision to remove all the brush inside that power line right of way.

Avatar
Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
375 Posts
(Offline)
7
March 26, 2019 - 10:10 pm

I just finally finished grafting the last of my apple scionwood this evening.  Nice to have it all done, although it will be awhile before I know whether or not the grafts were successful.  Crossed fingers!

Jafar said:  "Save the scion until the bark is slipping and do a bark graft instead."  ...I'm wondering what you guys are talking about when you say this, because I tend to think of "slipping bark" in terms of summertime bud-grafts while the rootstock or tree is in active growth.  When does one know when "the bark is slipping" outside of active summertime growth?  

Also, you guys are talking about "parafilm" and an apparently cheaper, knock-off form of "parafilm," but I have no point of comparison to understand what is being talked about.  I'm thinking here not just about my own inability to understand, but also the fact that we have online posters (--at least a few--) in other countries who, I would guess, would be just as clueless as I apparently am.  

I have a roll of what I purchased as "Parafilm bud grafted tape" a couple or three years ago, but I have yet to use it.  I guess that I just don't trust it.  I won't know whether or not it works until I actually use it, but I tend to make only one graft of a scion to a rootstock, and therefore a single failure means that I lost the cultivar by 100%.  It may seem ridiculous, but I almost always make only one graft from a new scion.  Its failure means a loss of the variety for the year, or, if it's something very rare, possibly my only chance of acquiring the cultivar.  

I just what to have a clear understanding of terms used; I don't mean to be a pain in der arse.  [Hey, I grew up in another country.  Don't hold it against me.]

Tim

P.S. -- As for grafting microsurgery:  several years ago I made a graft of a Malus that I was about to lose.  It was down to a twig, basically.  I made a whip-and-tongue graft of 3/32nds of an inch diameter on another apple.  [Yes, I said whip and tongue!]  The graft took, but in my attempt to match the scion diameter to that of the rootstock, I grafted higher on the plant than I should've.  The graft survived for two years, but the energy of the rootstock was going into the rest of the established plant and thus was being dissipated.  The rootstock "decided" what was expendable.  I learned.  Experimentation, observation, lessons learned....  With age (hopefully) comes wisdom. Wink

Avatar
Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
684 Posts
(Offline)
8
March 27, 2019 - 1:36 pm

teflon.jpg
(for a larger image click the icon below)

John: It took me a while to get back to you because I was in Seattle yesterday and with the help of some botanists I have been able to collect (per picture) some very small scionwood from prunus brigin"tina" (for small as also seen per the link) and I will try to accomplish this at home here today, and cleft grafting anything to another apricot should always be avoided to apricot rootstocks that were never sheltered due to other reasons that are not currently convenient to point out at the moment.

So the picture above (ie. plumbers teflon) is intended to portray the most stretchy and self clinging thing on the market that I have ever experienced and far more stretchy than any kind of parafilm. It is a common product and cheap, but not necessarily the best option unless like these eco-apricot types from Seattle, the wood is much less than 3/16 inches. Then the only thing you need to know from the roll itself is to use it as "stretchy sideways", as lengthwise it will not stretch at all.

There is no perfect parafilm for every situation either. Each have a special kind of graft that works the best to each brand of them. The one Jafar and I were familiar with is the "most one" of all the parafilms I have seen so far to imitate this same method of application of teflon. It is also probably more expensive because it is rolled and each peice is perforated but for a hobby I feel the cost as well justified.

As in the case of seran wrap that Daniel posted on another grafting method topic all the above provide great advantage to the sealing in and out of moisture and disease just the same.

Attachments
Avatar
John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
(Offline)
9
March 28, 2019 - 10:28 am

I hope to do some bark grafting, but my main obstacle is whether the scions will last. I can't store them in the fridge.  I have two 240 lb teenagers eating me out of house and home. I eat a lot too.  We don't go out to eat due to cost, health concerns, so much food grown at home,  low income, and the fact that my wife is a spectacular cook.  Also, I fear that I will just forget, because there are so many other crucial things to do at that time of year.

Great idea though.
John S
PDX OR

Avatar
Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
684 Posts
(Offline)
10
March 28, 2019 - 9:36 pm

John: It kind of seems like we need to know what options you have for rootstocks to work with.

Fortunately my options for rootstocks for my tiny apricot species scions from Seattle do have bigger stock to go onto so as per my 2 uploads...

1st try is using a very risky and hard way to do a 3/32 inch diameter scion to the same size very small stock. It took lots of carefull and delicate time to place the tounge with an old Shick style razor. After the very delicate tounge held the scion in place I then did with teflon what I normally do with my buddy parafilm style of tape is make a stretchy string out of it. Started by taking a scissors to produce a square 3/4" by 3/4" teflon. By carefully using left and right hands pinch the 2 opposite sides, start stretching and rolling each end while stretching. After a few practice peices you should be able to easily master a nice 2.5 inch long string. So that should wrap around to give the scion the extra support in order to be strong enough to take another layer of parafilm or teflon.

2nd try is doing a cleft graft on the same rootstock. Cleft grafts are as good as the bark or "in the slip grafts" which are the same thing. But since no bark is quite slipping yet (maybe another week) I had no choice but do the cleft graft. 

There are almost infinite numbers of reasons why grafts fail. Too many to mention here. But one important thing to mention for sure is that I avoided any 2 year wood or older on the choices of my scionwood and the rootstock to graft to. Both these pictures show a 9 year old rootstock of marianna 2624. The only new wood is too high up. So last year I cut most the tree away to force brand new ground suckers which if things go the way I think, will become the new tree.

These new ground shoots that formed last summer were also sheltered all winter season long. I continue to shelter them until I see everything growing good. This is because apricots are so difficult. If I lose all my grafts it would be because of in the case of the tiny whip and string grafting it took so long to do before everything got sealed. If I do lose my cleft graft it will be because I waited too long to collect scionwood in which case the scions would be not worthy.

So I hope this helps explain it well for you. This is the reason Jafar had tried to steer you into cleft or bark grafting small stuff. This also in fact is why propagators never whip graft small stuff. Because small stuff is faster budding them, but only if you can find big enough buds. For example carmine jewel cherry wood is almosy impossible and also my prunus brigentina. They are too tiny to do a proper bud graft. My carmine jewel on my gisela-5 that I forgot to show you while you were here picking up the gisela-6 was mastered with bark grafts, but that started with collecting those scions in November and freeze treating them until spring.

Attachments
Avatar
Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
684 Posts
(Offline)
11
March 30, 2019 - 12:59 pm

John: If you have already grafted your skinny scions then please know that they will dry out in a day like this. But they will still remain alive for the day. The concern is the high amount of exterior surface area verses the small contained moisture. By tomorrow you must do as I did today. Is to have had moist peatmoss heaped up around them. 

In order to illustrate more I had taken pictures and will start a new topic to address a few of these things there in order to keep this thread of string wrapping in context...

Reinettes: Good point about where to graft. I shall try and move the point over by the end of the day as well ...and for the same reason.

Avatar
John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
(Offline)
12
April 1, 2019 - 7:15 pm

These are some good ideas.  One observation I have made with the parafilm on the tiny scions is that I have to wrap them a lot more carefully than for budding.  I make sure there are no air gaps, stretch and twist the tape and probably put double the amount on there to make sure they aren't exposed to air.  I can already see that some probably wont' make it and I think the possible air gap is the reason.

John S
PDX OR

Avatar
Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
684 Posts
(Offline)
13
April 1, 2019 - 9:59 pm

Your onto it when you know how to increase the binding strength of the parafilm. 🙂  I'm a little confused which air gaps there are in your graft. Air gaps inside the protective area of parafilm? If the answer is affirmative then it sounds more likely the cambium is touching someplace else and in which case the young sap-wood is half or more out of touch. In which case it is more an issue of the lack of conduction of upwards water flow through the sap-wood. In which case follow along my after-care advice, and in particular the link to the 1970s method of using moist peat-moss around most or all of everything (ie. graft and all).

If at any time this month you want to regraft a new temporary scion on the gisela-6 then PM me for some well stored cherry wood which will actually be a great and permanent solution as a scoffold builder interstem. 

It took me allot of years of research in order to see the light and ways about all this cherry-apricot stuff about the failure aspect of it all. Then see for yourself my other lengthy comments started as myself being alcan_nw from the point downwards of norman ng, about March 27th 2019.

Apricot wood, norman ng verses Matt verses alcan_nw (me)

Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles
All RSSShow Stats
Administrators:
Idyllwild
Moderators:
John S
Marsha H
Viron
jafar
portlandian
Top Posters:
Rooney: 684
DanielW: 519
PlumFun: 495
Reinettes: 375
davem: 312
Dubyadee: 222
gkowen: 218
sweepbjames: 212
Larry_G: 151
quokka: 148
Newest Members:
lelandzeller37
jaredgooseberry
kelleelamond96
ermabarrenger0
eloise3572
odettecardin147
jedodowd18
woodrowkleiman
terriheathershaw
allenmartens8
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 4
Topics: 2811
Posts: 15714

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 0
Members: 7099
Moderators: 5
Admins: 1
Most Users Ever Online: 232
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 13
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)