Menu Close
Avatar
Log In
Please consider registering
Guest
Forum Scope






Start typing a member's name above and it will auto-complete

Match



Forum Options



Min search length: 3 characters / Max search length: 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_TopicIcon
HOS Fruit Tree Grafting Classes
Avatar
Viron
1400 Posts
(Offline)
1
March 1, 2008 - 4:10 pm

Hey all - it’s been one week today – any comments from last Saturday’s Grafting Classes? I’ll guess it was my 5th year helping teach the “Intermediate” level class and helping with the two Beginners classes; and though my voice was recovering from a cold – I made it through.

Turnout was impressive! I’ve feared, by now, everyone would have attended ... but there appeared to be more students than ever … even had to give up my stool for the second class!

Introduced as “The Forum Maven” (had to look that up) I promptly suggested those attending use our Forum to provide feedback and ask further questions. Any questions?

Folks were determined to learn! I can’t remember, in all five years, having done the actual graft for anyone – plenty of practice cuts ... but everyone insists on grafting their own apple tree. Asked what the difference would be, I suggested a slightly lesser percentage of take. Quickly following up that I’d insist on ‘making’ my own tree too!

As there are nearly as many ways to bind a graft as there are to make one ... even the “Heckler” at the rear was welcome. Especially when he made amends with his homemade cider after class… As usual, I hauled in my assortment of experiments and examples, and must admit (as I continue to learn), my advise has shifted slightly over the years.

Example; if grafting a few trees, as opposed to an orchard, there seems less a reason to cleft graft when waiting a few weeks longer one may use a less invasive bark graft. And though I also set up examples of ‘living stock’ to practice on, describing a bark graft before the bark’s actually slipping (only tearing) is tricky. One year I used a fresh chunk of Douglas fir – it’s bark was slipping and worked fine; this year I used willow -- I’ve run out of extra apple stock. …Fortunately, our Arboretum next door hadn't!

So, if anyone attending these classes (even years ago) have follow-up questions or advice (good or bad), let us know. And thanks to all the HOS members present… nearly everyone -- what a great group!

Avatar
Lotus026
Buena Vista, Oregon
111 Posts
(Offline)
2
March 2, 2008 - 10:04 pm

I was one of the attendees of the first "Beginning" class, and I learned a bit; though was also surprised at how much I knew - never having done a single graft before! But I had spent lots of time on the Web researching and looking at on-line tutorials; had several months at work with no work to do but web access....which sure contributed to my fruit collectors disease!

Problems:
I never heard any mention of where to place a graft in relation to the roots, most of my fellow students then just seemed to place them at the very top of the rootstock; not clipping them off and placing them farther down where the wood might be better. Also, I'm pretty sure that all the rootstock available was leftover from last year; none looked good - I don't know this for fact; but book & web reading lead me to look for green wood; I couldn't find any looking though the bag of rootstock they had; just brown wood. I took one, since it came with the class; but I sure wouldn't use it for a tree I counted on growing!
Also heard nothing about bud direction - one student was walking out with his completed tree when Karen called out something like "Bud inversion issues!" and got him to go back and redo the graft; but again think it wasn't mentioned in the class - I knew about it from reading.
Was also surprised at the use of masking tape, when there are several products available made just for grafting which I'd think would be superior - yes, it can work; so can lots of other things! Heck, I'd think cut up bicycle tubes would be better than masking tape!
Also surprised at the depth of cut for the "tongue", lots deeper than anything I've seen elsewhere; maybe it works but seemed more invasive than needed for structural strength. Think what I've seen used as rule of thumb was about 1/3 the length of the main cut. Guess I'll get to see more in practice at the Scion Exchange, I'll be there collecting interstem wood:)
The finger guards were nice idea, hadn't seen any mention of them anywhere else that I can remember!
And nice to get hands-on experience with experienced people nearby to critique my practice grafts. I'm looking forward to my rootstock showing up to graft my own, found out at the class that the MM111 I wanted wasn't going to be available at the Scion Exchange; at least being at the class gave me a couple week head start on finding that out! Would have been bummed to not find it available, after seeing it on the list of what was going to be there - but guess that wasn't the list of what was actually being ordered!

Realized I also missed out on a golden opportunity - was walking out at the same time as a woman from Salem with her newly grafted Grimes Golden, she knew nothing about that particular apple; I did and had picked several boxes from a half dozen trees in a Benton County Park. And I totally spaced out that I had a box of them in the back of my car on the way up to my lady friend's horses, I could have given some to her right then so she'd have an idea what the Grimes Golden tasted like!
Dave
lotus026@yahoo.com

Avatar
Viron
1400 Posts
(Offline)
3
March 3, 2008 - 10:19 am

Hey Dave, it was nice to finally meet you. Let me answer what I can:

“I never heard any mention of where to place a graft in relation to the roots, most of my fellow students then just seemed to place them at the very top of the rootstock…” – I hope our instructors note that. What I found while circulating among the beginner's classes was the participants fear of ‘messing up’ the rootstock cut; so rather than start lower, they’d cut high – to leave ‘extra wood’ in case they had to try again (as most do). But if they made a ‘good cut’ they're reluctant to try again lower and simply attach the scion high. They can always plant it deep… if not, it will maintain a constant desire to sprout growth from ‘all those’ rootstock buds below the graft… We’ll have to emphasize that next year.

“Also, I'm pretty sure that all the rootstock available was leftover from last year; none looked good…” – I doubt that; to remain viable it would have been planted out last season, perhaps doubled in girth, if trimmed, established a new and obvious ‘leader,’ and had far more roots than I seen. Though I purposely avoid memorizing the characteristics of rootstocks … we’ve had one that appears ‘red-brown’ inside. It’s ‘bothered me,’ until being assured, “That’s how it looks,” by an expert.

Don’t know how many friends I make at the rootstock table during our Exchange … but if stock looks ‘iffy’ to me I’ll send them back for a replacement. And though I was constantly pulled away to explain “top-working” (my part of the program), and had questioned one rootstock myself … I didn’t hear any/many complaints or questions regarding its quality. I did notice some ‘root pruning’ that didn’t look necessary.

“Also heard nothing about bud direction - one student was walking out with his completed tree when Karen called out something like "Bud inversion issues!” – That’s usually mentioned during the classes, but generally laughed off by the participants. Perhaps our instructors felt it demeaning to mention this time, thus – at least two ‘upside down’ scions … I caught one at my table. Guess we take bud direction as too obvious, but will have to return it to the program!

“Was also surprised at the use of masking tape, when there are several products available made just for grafting which I'd think would be superior…” -- Don’t get us started! Though I carried a pocket full of large rubber grafting bands, offering and suggesting they be used … there again, I was quickly pulled off to my top-working display. And I hate to contradict what everyone had just been taught…

Yes, masking tape ‘works,’ most of the time. One reason it’s used is that it’s readily available; few participants are likely to hunt down and purchase several lifetime supplies of these bands – and they don’t last a lifetime. An alternative is electrician’s tape, the cheaper the better. To me, a better choice; but curious students seem compelled to un-wrap it … there's hardly a better way to kill the delicate tree than tearing its bark away from the union! If you’ve experience, you ‘know’ when, how and where to sever this black plastic tape; but there’s recognizable confusion every time it's mentioned in class…

My concern with the tape is its lack of elasticity. It’s essential to line up one side of the whip & tongue graft. Grafting bands have the ability to conform, electrician’s tape too, to a lesser degree; but masking tape is more ridged, will tear, and may trap air… I think we’re providing ‘thinner’ masking tape; better, if not ideal. We did sell a grafting kit consisting of latex grafting seal and bands… That’s another reason I’d like some feedback here, otherwise we never know.

“Also surprised at the depth of cut for the "tongue", lots deeper than anything I've seen elsewhere; maybe it works but seemed more invasive than needed for structural strength.” – A concern of mine too, I even mentioned it after the first class. I had participants bringing me connections where the over-lapping edges of the cuts were a quarter inch beyond the corresponding cut… There’s an art to those deep splices, and done right, they’re a thing of beauty! Wrong, and their near-certain death… One guy, a professed woodworker, impressed me with a beautiful connection – better than I usually come up with when trying for the same, but most were less than impressive.

I suggest a tongue cut about a quarter inch deep, about 2/5ths from the sharp edge of the both cuts. Here again, you’re only looking to line up one side … and that tongue’s only there as a ‘temporary mechanical lock’ to aid in wrapping. As we discussed after class, the ideal connection would have no tongue cut – just a straight ‘splice’ – but how would you wrap it..? Problem is, get a dozen grafters together and you’ll easily end up with a half-dozen different methods – if not more!

“Guess I'll get to see more in practice at the Scion Exchange, I'll be there collecting interstem wood:)” – Remind us!

Ordering rootstock is never easy for the Society … wholesalers don’t want to break bundles down to the ‘small’ quantities we request. But if we don’t work with them our costs (passed on of course) would be as high as mail-ordering. And, what do we do with the extras? So we’re beggars - not choosers ~ But if we again have Persimmon rootstock – I’ll be impressed!

Avatar
Nick Routledge
47 Posts
(Offline)
4
March 3, 2008 - 1:35 pm

What type of rootstock will be available on Saturday, Viron?

n

Avatar
Viron
1400 Posts
(Offline)
5
March 3, 2008 - 2:29 pm

I don’t know? :roll: not my station … and I don’t know were to find out, other than the event itself.

Avatar
Shaun Shepherd
45 Posts
(Offline)
6
March 3, 2008 - 7:04 pm

Dave,
I was another of the instructors at the class. As far as how high to graft the root, I like about 6" from the uppermost roots, sometimes a bit higher if I'm trying to match the sizes. I read somewhere that the higher the root is grafted the more dwarfing effect you get.
I believe all the rootstock was purchased this year.
The red/brown wooded rootstock was Bud9, it also has red leaves.
And I have a bundle of Antonovka some of which I was thinking of bringing to the Fair since I don't need them all, I think the size should be simular to 111
I'll be grafting next to Viron on Saturday.
Nick,
I think we will have; P22, M26, Bud9, M9,M27, M7 apple, OHxF 333, 97 and Quince C, pear and 2 or 3 types for stone fruit, more I can't remember.And yes Viron we have persimon again. We should post this info on the Fruit Propagtion fair event page. I will see if it can still be done

Avatar
Shaun Shepherd
45 Posts
(Offline)
7
March 4, 2008 - 5:29 pm

Here is the actual correct list:
The following is the rootstock list:
M-27
P-22
M-9
B-9
M-26
M-7 all for apple
for pears
OHXF 333
Quince A & C
OHXF87
for quince
Quince A & C
for stone fruit
Marianna 26-24
for cherries
Colt (prunus avium)
for persimmon
persimmon seedlings

Avatar
Lotus026
Buena Vista, Oregon
111 Posts
(Offline)
8
March 4, 2008 - 9:24 pm

Thanks much, Shaun! I'd thought that maybe the reason the M-9 at the class looked so brown was that it was leftover from last year; Joanie was saying that she still needed to order rootstock for the scion exchange - and that she wasn't going to get M-111, since only about one guy wanted it. So I got desperate and ordered some M-111 from Raintree! Thanks for the Antanovka offer, really thought about trying it; a friend near me in Corvallis has a handful of trees planted on it and likes it; though he does have about 85 trees and many different rootstocks. Also glad to be able to get OHxF 333, that's what the Germplasm Repository people say they really like; but Raintree didn't have it - I was hoping that HOS would:)
Dave

Avatar
Nick Routledge
47 Posts
(Offline)
9
March 4, 2008 - 10:38 pm

Yes, I would love to pick up some of that Antonovka too, Shaun if, of course, you have enough to share.

n

Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles
All RSSShow Stats
Administrators:
Idyllwild
Moderators:
jafar
Marsha H
Viron
John S
Top Posters:
Rooney: 793
DanielW: 519
PlumFun: 495
Reinettes: 428
davem: 360
Dubyadee: 239
sweepbjames: 234
gkowen: 218
Larry_G: 187
quokka: 174
Newest Members:
Aman
emmajohnson
BeesandFrogs
trs1520
ts1520
iamcole
BaldCrabbyCider
kiricowell
Paul T
Jafultz@columbus.rr.com
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 4
Topics: 2909
Posts: 16779

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 0
Members: 1423
Moderators: 4
Admins: 1
Most Users Ever Online: 232
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 16
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)