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Hollywood plum as rootstock
What performs well on Hollywood?
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jafar
549 Posts
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February 11, 2022 - 8:43 pm

Hello Daniel, and anybody else with experience.

I've got 2 Hollywood plum trees, grown from cuttings, in the ground, thanks to a generous member who gave me a bunch of cuttings.

The bigger of the two looks pretty healthy, and slated to put on some blooms this spring.  I'm hoping to finally get to taste some.

In any case, its doing well enough that I probably don't need two.   Ready spaces are at a premium, and having  a tree that is already established is a big head start.

So what types of plums have folks been successful with on Hollywood?   Do European plums do well?  Any ideas on whether it conveys any dwarfing?

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
518 Posts
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February 12, 2022 - 7:26 am

Jafar, I grafted Hanska and a seedling Asian plum onto Hollywood stock.  They grew fine, size similar to Hollywood (about 1o feet tall in 5 years) but Hanska is difficult to fruit and the seedling type blooms but no fruits,  They will get over grafted, I think.  I've also gone the opposite direction and grafted Hollywood onto other types, such as Methley, Toka, and an unnamed tree.  Those grew and fruited fine too, maybe more vigor than Hollywood on its own roots.

The first year fruiting they may be smaller than later years, but flavor should be good.  Mine overset so I thin them a lot.

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markshancock
Oregon
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February 13, 2022 - 6:06 pm

@jafar My Purple Leaf Plum I think is either Thundercloud or Hollywood so I have been researching what people have grafted onto them

Some Plum-Apricots seems to be compatible

  • Flavor Delight Aprium
  • Hesse Weinberger

Also, I have seen discussions on using Adara (Puente) as an interstem.

I would love to try any of these but, I have not found scions.

OGW does have Flavor Delight Aprium trees so I was going to ask if they could save trimmings from if they put on in a box to ship but, they have not been answering their phone.


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jafar
549 Posts
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February 13, 2022 - 8:56 pm

@markshancock Apricots are hard to grow here, even under ideal conditions, and from what I've seen, Apriums are more like apricots than plums.  I wouldn't think they'd be a good candidate for grafting to the under canopy of your ornamental tree.

I don't recall if you said, does your tree produce fruit?  I think Hollywood is supposed to be self-fruitful and make good fruit.  The purple-leafed flowering plums, in the East Vancouver suburbs anyway, don't produce any fruit.

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markshancock
Oregon
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February 13, 2022 - 9:37 pm

jafar said
I don't recall if you said, does your tree produce fruit?  

Yes, our tree produces a lot of deep red cherry sized plums.  I ate on once and it was pretty sour.  I think you could use it to make jam or something but probably not something you want to snack on.  Also almost all of the fruit is to high up to reach.  If I want to harvest it, I would have to design something - like electric scissors on a pole.

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markshancock
Oregon
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February 13, 2022 - 9:42 pm

Interesting cheap harvesting idea from a soda bottle.

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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February 14, 2022 - 9:23 am

markshancock said 
Yes, our tree produces a lot of deep red cherry sized plums.  I ate on once and it was pretty sour.  I think you could use it to make jam or something but probably not something you want to snack on.  Also almost all of the fruit is to high up to reach.  If I want to harvest it, I would have to design something - like electric scissors on a pole.

A family who used to be active here under 'lonrom' has a red plum that he found growing in Salem of what he thought was an abandoned test site for fruit trees from an old fruit breeder. Long ago lonrom gave me wood which I grafted onto my 'shiro' plum along with another red leaf plum 'kuban burgandy'. I liked the one from lonrom best because it had no sour even as the fruitlets were still under development in June. If I would get them earlier I would eat the whole thing. Just not too many for concern on cyanide. 

I noticed insistence on apricots so I wanted to throw in that there are a few known hybrid other things that do well, at least for me. The 'sugar twist' is very interesting. Very precocious, late flowering, and therefore productive. The quality is excellent and the take back for many is the lack of plummy. Nowhere near "sour", and If the cherry fruit fly ever catches onto my sugartwists I think it would be all over from there going forward. 

Jafar may have good things going on with 'slendor' (plum apricot mix) but too early to know for sure yet. The best bet is a wait and see plan. If you find any proof out there then please tell us. I have some 'krymsk-86' hybrid plum that would be fully compatible between your plum rootstock and any future hybrid candidates. I got it for the same apricot reasons. With enough there's some for you(?) My upcoming plans for this inter-stem are for a manually erected wintered and sheltered position.

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markshancock
Oregon
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February 14, 2022 - 12:23 pm

Rooney said
... If you find any proof out there then please tell us.   

@Rooney what "proof" are you interested in?

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
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February 14, 2022 - 3:54 pm

Hollywood are good size plums.  Nor cherry size.

hollywood plums

Comparing to Oregon Curl Free Peaches, Pristine Apples, King and some other fig.

plums and peaches

I grew Flavor Delight Aprium in Vancouver, about 15 years ago.  The fruit was very sweet, quite delicious.  Then it bloomed and there was a frost that killed the tree dead as a doornail.  Blooms too early for my yard, as do all of the apricots I have tried.

You can do a search on Lon Rombough plums.  He died in 2012 but there is still some info on the internet.  Also in the old archived HOS forum but I don't go there any more because it messes up my password.  I don't know how it does that, but it does.

My comment about grafting plums had an inaccuracy.  It was Ember plum, not Hanska, that I grafted onto Hollywood.  It grew great, but none of my hybrid plums of that class have borne fruit.  I think those need American plum pollinizer.

Flavor Delight Aprium in my yard the year before it was frosted

aprium

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jafar
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February 14, 2022 - 4:25 pm

Those are beautiful Daniel.  Thanks for sharing.

Rooney, I think Mark is just starting out.  I assume interstems, at least in one go, are more than he would want to take on during first grafting attempts into a non-ideal condition (low in canopy of big plum tree without reducing the canopy above).

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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February 14, 2022 - 6:56 pm

I wish the seedling (ungrafted) apricot I planted 15+ years ago (still bearing) at Vancouver Wintler park will serve as a future "proof" that it works grafted to something other than itself. That's why I have the Krymsk-86, a friendly interstem that takes apricot scions per Purvis. I can join both together, then after on which plum in my yard I'm using as rootstock, can as Daniel just did, then host a picture with possible fruits on it some day. That's the kind of feedback everybody likes so thanks Daniel We also like knowing for sure where everybody lives, or at least searchable through a profile page. 

Most of the few seeds that I managed to steal from nature last year at the Wintler apricot have germinated now. Not sure what would happen if somebody wanted to test grow and trial them out in an ungrafted state.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
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February 19, 2022 - 4:24 pm

It's interesting reading through this topic, in part, because of the mentions of Ron Lombough.  I never had a chance to meet him, but some 25 years ago when I was at a botanical institution in southern California I received an enquiry from him regarding a profoundly obscure fruiting plant that he was looking for, specifically for a client of his.  I don't recall what that plant was (--sure wish I could remember--), but his tremendous effort to find something for his client left quite an impression.  The fact that I remember that "introduction" to LonRom is proof.  It was a tragedy that he died so young.  A good man, and it's nice to see him mentioned here.  Sure wish I'd had a chance to meet him.

Tim (Reinettes).

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jafar
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February 19, 2022 - 8:10 pm

If you look in this forum's archives you'll find posts from Lon.  In a thread about the plum tree at my property, I learned from him that St. Julian rootstock supposedly makes good plums.

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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February 20, 2022 - 10:12 am

I remember that one Jafar. There are two commonly sold versions of Saint Julien, both once validly patented for the production or of grafting other stone fruits upon. The first of two were Saint Julien A, which I recognized at the time Lon made his post, that was the "yellow fruited one" he was talking about. The last of two were St Julien cv 'pixy', distinguished mainly for improved dwarfing. Lon had these both, but fruited only SJ cv -A, his pixy types never volunteered, and patents describe pixy as having small blue fruit. 

Were it not for connections through HOS forums much of this would be lost so let me add a bit about the one that fruits yellow because I have had mine around my home and producing plums sparsely. 

Saint Julien A in SW Washington: 

-eventually gets runners all over your yard
-late flowering with no overlap with my 'shiro' plum that is grafted on the same SJA stock
-not pollen compatible to itself but per books can be prolific with other similar type plums
-pollen from my wild form of Manitoba plum later average blooming will work because there is overlap. 
-a decent size mostly yellow skin plum with a mix of yellow-green in the flesh
-not as decent in quality verses similar plums of it's type such as Italian

Lon also collected projects that he was the only person who survived others work, such as a collection of F2 (second generation) between plums vs apricot. I can not confirm the accuracy of the project other than what Lon said to me concerning this. But the results were disappointing to him because nothing produced well enough to warrant further looking at. Only one of about 20 was a regular producing yellow plum like individual. On the other end was one very poorly producing yellow that was fine enough to warrant further looking into. Sadly years after grafting that one to my home and into a very tall state of maturity, no fruits could ever form. 

Conclusion: Fertility has it's own infertility course of action in wide crosses and how it applies to grapes that must be human selected for. //end of quote from LR.

My own 2 cents is that this also is applicable to stone fruits and probably everything else.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
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February 21, 2022 - 3:46 pm

Thanks for the interesting info.  I guess that I have a couple of "points/questions":

1):   Some 19-20 years ago I purchased a named, grafted clone of Prunus maritima (Beach Plum) from Raintree.  It was grafted onto a rootstock that I think was 'St. Julien B'.  The plant grew for, perhaps, 3 years, then bloomed it's butt off, ...and promptly died.  After that I cut out and discarded the dead plant.  About another 3 years later, I noticed some Prunus root sprouts coming up about 5-6 feet away.  There had been no other Prunus nearby.  I had forgotten what the rootstock for the Beach Plum had been, I but decided to dig-up and "pot" the sprouts.  They grew, and ultimately I transplanted them in a 15-gallon pot in the hope that they'd reach maturity and I could identify them.  It must have 2020 (--time seems to be getting malleable recently--) that they finally flowered and fruited.  The fruits were about 1" around (2.5 cm) and green, and basically tasted like 'Reine Claude's.  Small, but doggone tasty.  I've left them in the pot, although 1 stem seems to have our endearing "Northwest Anthracnose" and I need to cut it out.  If my wife hadn't demanded that I get rid of my old catalogues (which I like for reference material) I would probably have been able to determine which rootstock was used.  Does anyone out there have a description of what 'St. Julien B' is supposed to be like?  When clones are used as rootstocks, they never bother to mention the fruits (if they can occur).

2):  Secondly, apparently I'm missing something unique or special about the 'Hollywood' plum.  Has it been found to be somehow "special" in its use as a rootstock?  Or somehow, genetically, it is promiscuous in its acceptance of various stone fruits grafted to it?  I'd love to get the "inside scoop" on it.  This past year I noticed a purple-leaf plum near the road in someone's front yard about a mile away.  It was loaded with good-sized plums.  I kept wondering whether it might be a 'Hollywood'.  Several years ago I also noticed some good fruiting purple-leaf plums around the parking lot of a medical facility just south of Chehalis.  I love "Japanese-type" plums, but growing from seed is too often a losing gamble.

My wife and I would love to grow apricots and peaches, but they are not amenable to our heavy clay soil, and apparently the disease pressures on them in our location are just too great.

Reinettes.

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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February 21, 2022 - 9:45 pm

So you each turn your back on peaches and apricots for more reputable plums and request knowledge about plums?

The plan you had at the time of your purchase of beach plum was ill fated to start with because of what was put out since. Both Ken of the former Oikos nursery and the Dr. Bors at the university in Saskatchewan have sort of unofficially put it out there that these beach plums and the bush Kerr cherry types are poor candidates for grafting to anything including themselves. So I'm not shocked at your results with beach plum. Twenty+ years ago I did the same as you with beach plum with the same outcome. It's interesting to know how much some people (you and I) are in common. 

I'm interested knowing what others know in responding to your questions first. Hopefully without having to revisit past long issues related with how to ID a red species of plum like we have in prior years, because that's quite impossible most of the time knowing.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
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February 22, 2022 - 7:04 pm

Thank you Jafar and Rooney, 

I'm led to think that the rootstock might be 'St. Julien A' given Rooney's description, even though the fruits at full maturity were what I would describe as light green, rather than yellow.  As I say, they were like small 'Reine Claude' plums.  Because the small fruits were so tasty, I plan on keeping the darn thing for the time being.  

In southern California I ordered and grew a couple of the Japanese-American plum hybrids.  They did surprising well, despite our lack of "a real, serious winter-type weather".  However, after moving to Washington with the colder "more real" winters, the couple of such hybrid plums that I subsequently ordered simply didn't thrive.  I was, and remain, confounded by this.

...I know that there are some some very hardy peaches, and we'd love to grow them, but for some reason the diseases of stone fruits are very prevalent around here and on our property the only things that seem resistant to them are the 'Marianna 2624' rootstocks that grew into trees (--although 1 seems to have succumbed this past year--), and the various feral Sweet Cherry seedlings (Prunus avium) that volunteer in our area, including our property.  When ripe, if I can reach them, I eat the cherries, but the progeny have largely reverted to small "wild-type" fruit size.  Because they seem more tolerant of the disease pressures here, I've collected seeds thinking that I might start them as seedlings, then use a dwarfing cherry rootstock as an interstem, then top-graft those to a really nice "sour/pie" cherry that's on an empty lot in Chehalis.  I'd really like to make my own cherry wine before I croak. Smile

Reinettes

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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February 22, 2022 - 9:34 pm

Reinettes said

In southern California I ordered and grew a couple of the Japanese-American plum hybrids.  They did surprising well, despite our lack of "a real, serious winter-type weather".  However, after moving to Washington with the colder "more real" winters, the couple of such hybrid plums that I subsequently ordered simply didn't thrive.  I was, and remain, confounded by this.

Thankyou so much Reinettes. I was wondering for quite some time how long somebody like you on the forums would give me an opening!

An inside look at plants immune systems over a period of 5 to 20 years of which had been summarized and released a year ago answers it! So take as many hours that you need to read and arrive at the same conclusion I did;

Fuller look into Molecules and Reactions into a Plants Immune System

It's sure not a read that everyone would like to finish, but my conclusions as a whole is that what you have going on with northern plums having issues here in wet PNW conditions are the same related reasons we can't grow apricots the way they can be grown in Northern Idaho, Minnesota or California. The wilder the form of apricot the more northern States (or south) they grow. 

It is because half of things that are external to plants attack them invisibly. Microbes that feed on plants disguise themselves. Some things can't like chomping insects that are actually heard by the plant can't. Just two examples of what I define before as External. 

The next corollary is the variable weather patterns all over the world that plants are poor predictors of, just like weather stations long before they knew surface Ocean temperatures can more accurately forecast norms for the year in any Country. Well plants can't sense these so this what is in common to plants was common to use before we evolved a way to not be surprised by weather. 

The link above that leads to the internal working and complexities of plants is specific when sighting that plants guess something is attacking the plant when it comes to microbes about 50% of the time. Again just to be clear check into the article concerning the 50% guess first. So the old familiar word that a plant is feeling stress and the first things the hardy plants do is think it's winter cold damage that's making them feel so sick here in PNW. So the hardy apricot that's grown in wet and high bacterial PNW feels sick really caused from that pathogen that is disguising it's attack, could be happening in your yard right now, while the plant is monitoring and making the immune suggestion to rebuild cell walls (winter-up). And that's the fatal mistake! (or at least prior to tonights lowsSmile!)

Before I came across this link this past year I wasn't sure what I read from an overseas Soviet scientist Kotovich (not included here), if what he found about tree hardiness was true or not. Now I think what he discovered was right. Some trees can focus (as a plant guess) more on stress being caused by microbes that when there is freeze damage, instead of hardening off and rebuilding, they (fruit trees) attack the frozen damage until it girdles and ends it right there. Just another fatal guess on the part of a different kind of tree that went wrong. A tree optimized for another Country.

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
518 Posts
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February 23, 2022 - 9:38 am

I can't say for certain, but I think my original Hollywood Plum is a Spencer Hollywood Plum, which apparently originated as a seedling in Hillsboro. 

Reference

It is fairly dwarf, has nice flowers, purple leaves, and deep burgundy color throughout the fruit.

Here is another article, about the purple leaf plums of Seattle.  Quoting the beginning of the article, "About 109 years ago (1880), M. Pissard immortalized his name in the annals of horticulture by introducing from Persia to France the first purpleleaf plum tree. That original clone, Prunus cerasifera'Pissardii' has in turn produced many seedlings, including hybrids, with more or less of "purple" color in their foliage."

Some cultivars of Prunus cerasifera have long been used as rootstocks.  It's going to depend on lots of specifics, but I imagine it would be at least semi-dwarfing.  The one tree that I made based on Hollywood rootstock and hybrid plum scion has remained compact at about ten years, maybe 10 feet tall. Myrobalan is cerasifera.  The deep colors are thought to have health benefits.

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jafar
549 Posts
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February 23, 2022 - 11:31 am

My St. Julien sounds a lot like the description above.  It sends out runners and pops up new trees even 10 or more feet from the trunk.  I've dug some of these up to make new trees.   I've let one at my old house, that traversed the back yard and came up in a raised bed box, flower so I could try the fruit.  It bloomed a few times before setting any fruit.  Last year there were several.  Apparently they ripen pretty late, and were still green when I tried them, not fully ripe, but showing some promise of gage type plum.

The plums around it that I'm aware of, aside from several European, are Beauty, Howard Miracle, Shiro across the street, and purple leafed flowering plums.  It set very sparsely, I assumed from some degree of self-fertility.

 

Here's a sucker I dug up and transplanted a little over a week ago.   I cut off the thick "runner" before replanting:

273795533_10159794246689764_5486568653114801636_n.jpg

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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February 23, 2022 - 1:51 pm

More sourcing of very good information again guys! 

That St Julien A you have in your hand would have flowering overlap to the euro plums you speak of in your post. Thus more the likely yours is version-A (SJ) like my one that is a complete failure for selfing with it's own pollen. Lon got his because he had both euro and gage plums (latter reportedly closer related) at his. Then indeed you (Jafar) could make a 'Frost' peach to graft to it. That's exactly what Biringer in Mt. Vernon WA would sell as semi-dwarf to Seattle's Molbaks (Woodenville WA) and Furnies (now shutdown) while I was living and investigating these things while renting there. 

Peaches on a peach root were classed by Biringer as standard, a bit bigger than on St. Julien-A. Anything on peach is not going to shoot like this. So it might be possible if you were to have peach on St julien A that no shoots would form. The single disadvantage for using St julien A under frost, according to Raintree and formerly Sam per printed info was that in younger years the St julien A combination need more leaf curl prevention until such a time the roots become established more. -just things I have not forgotten yet.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
370 Posts
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February 23, 2022 - 4:41 pm

Thanks guys,

This is fascinating input, and a lot to chew on and digest!  You folks really come through with your own experiences, observations, and research.  It's always so fully appreciated and helpful!  As I may have mentioned before, I've gardened in various climates over my lifetime, from tropical to north temperate, to "sub-tropical".  I have never encountered the kinds of challenges that I've faced in the PNW.  It's apparently a life-long learning experience, and the changing, ever less predictable climate isn't helping.

By the way, Rooney:  I have a red plum.  Can you tell me what it is? Wink  My wife worked at least half her life in the horticulture trade, and I worked for numerous years in the botanical field, and one gets asked the most impossible questions from people who want to know what a particular plant is, but don't have a specimen to show you, and haven't the first clue about how to meaningfully describe what they want identified.  Too many of them aren't even aware of the basic biology of plant pollination.  It's sad, but in some cases it's so absurd that one can't help but "smile inside" and do the best one can for the person. Smile

Reinettes.

Oh, and of course a P.S., as I can never remember everything that I want to say....  According to Rooney's earlier posting of the description for 'St. Julien A',  it is self incompatible and needs amenable pollen from another Prunus x domestica.  Most likely this would have come from the persisting thicket of Damson plum present on our property when we moved in, and probably dating back to the original homesteaders.  I should have mentioned it as one of the Prunus that seems fairly resistance to the local stone-fruit diseases so prevalent here.  Last year, with the extra heat, they were absolutely loaded with plums.  They even developed a bit more sweetness than they've had before.  However, I'm not looking forward to the accelerating climate change which -- at the current rate of attention -- will not be stopped. Frown

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jafar
549 Posts
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February 24, 2022 - 3:18 pm

Rooney said
More sourcing of very good information again guys! 

That St Julien A you have in your hand would have flowering overlap to the euro plums you speak of in your post. Thus more the likely yours is version-A (SJ) like my one that is a complete failure for selfing with it's own pollen. Lon got his because he had both euro and gage plums (latter reportedly closer related) at his. Then indeed you (Jafar) could make a 'Frost' peach to graft to it. That's exactly what Biringer in Mt. Vernon WA would sell as semi-dwarf to Seattle's Molbaks (Woodenville WA) and Furnies (now shutdown) while I was living and investigating these things while renting there. 

Peaches on a peach root were classed by Biringer as standard, a bit bigger than on St. Julien-A. Anything on peach is not going to shoot like this. So it might be possible if you were to have peach on St julien A that no shoots would form. The single disadvantage for using St julien A under frost, according to Raintree and formerly Sam per printed info was that in younger years the St julien A combination need more leaf curl prevention until such a time the roots become established more. -just things I have not forgotten yet.

  

When you say "under frost", I take that to mean St. Julien A rootstock with frost Variety grafted to it.  Interesting.  After trying several peach trees, I'm down to Frost, and whatever was here when I bought the place about 11 years ago.   The latter is a bigger, and much better tasting and flavored peach, although quality not as consistent as Frost.  I've budded this peach, onto the St. Julien, so we'll see how it does.  It tolerates curl well, at least when mature.

Well, I suppose I also still have a Charlotte interstem, or understock of sorts, that is now a Emerald Beaut plum or Emerald Drop Pluot, or whatever it turns out to be.   The Charlotte has a low watersprout or 2 that I spared.   I also grafted over my Indian Free to Early Laxton plum.  The plum on both of these former peach stocks are very vigorous - although they have a big established root mass behind them when they were topworked.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
370 Posts
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February 24, 2022 - 4:26 pm

Jafar, you said:

"... After trying several peach trees, I'm down to Frost, and whatever was here when I bought the place about 11 years ago.   The latter is a bigger, and much better tasting and flavored peach, although quality not as consistent as Frost...."

I'm curious as to which ones you might have trialled over time, and why they might have failed.  I pulled-out our Sunset Western Garden book to see what had been recommended for my Zone 4.  I'm guessing that you might actually be in Zone 6.  The peach cultivars they list that supposedly do well in my Zone 4 are:  'Early Elberta', 'Frost', 'Harken', 'New Haven', 'Q1-8', and 'Reliance'.  I'm guessing that the majority are not resistant to peach-leaf curl.  My wife and I didn't have luck with a peach / nectarine tree a few years ago, but some of us are hard-headed and would like to try, try again. Smile

Fresh, home-grown peaches in summer!  How could someone not try again!

Reinettes.

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jafar
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February 24, 2022 - 5:20 pm

From your list, I think only Frost and Q1-8 are curl resistant.

Indian Free grew big, bloomed a bit a few times, never set any fruit.  Also had the most curl of the curl resistant cultivars, including my unknown.  Charlotte set a few fruit but they didn't mature into good fruit.  Also had a high incidence of doubles.  There were a couple of other peaches or nectarines when I got the place that wound up topworked and/or removed.  Hmm, maybe that's it for me.

And I meant to say that the unknown here has better texture than Frost, as well.

BTW, I'm almost zero spray.  Maybe dormant oil and copper one dose.

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John S
PDX OR
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February 25, 2022 - 8:56 am

Great posts, people. My purple leaf plum has occasional years of no fruit.  I call it Hollywood, but I can't be sure.  Normally, it makes lots of good tasting fruit.  It and also my European plums make lots of suckers. I have given many away,and I received mine this way.   Some had seedlings and the fruit was terribly small and bland.  I got my damson plum from a cutting from a neighbor's yard.  Now it's fully grown and producing like gangbusters.  When I added boron to my soil, it increased the flowering and fruiting.  40 mule BOrax.

John S
PDX OR

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John S
PDX OR
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February 25, 2022 - 9:38 am

Jafar-I forgot to mention this: Traditional wisdom is that Asian plums will take and last on Euro rootstock, but there will be long term compatibility issues with Euro on Asian rootstock.

I haven't independently verified this, but this is what Jerry Shroyer, et al told me back in the day.

John S
PDX OR

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
518 Posts
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February 25, 2022 - 9:47 am

jafar said
From your list, I think only Frost and Q1-8 are curl resistant.

Indian Free grew big, bloomed a bit a few times, never set any fruit.  Also had the most curl of the curl resistant cultivars, including my unknown.  Charlotte set a few fruit but they didn't mature into good fruit.  Also had a high incidence of doubles.  There were a couple of other peaches or nectarines when I got the place that wound up topworked and/or removed.  Hmm, maybe that's it for me.

And I meant to say that the unknown here has better texture than Frost, as well.

BTW, I'm almost zero spray.  Maybe dormant oil and copper one dose.

  

I have grown, or tried to grow,  Charlotte, Q18 (I think this is renamed Salish Summer?), Oregon Curl Free, Indian Free, Frost, multiple genetic dwarf, and  a seedling from Oregon Curl Free.

Charlotte - Lots of leaf curl for several years.  Last year had a fairly good crop.  Small peaches.

Q18 - Some leaf curl, crop is small so far.

Oregon Curl Free - minimal curl  OK crop, died of canker.

Indian Free - never took off.  Reportedly needs a pollinator, I don't know.

Frost - never took off but I was sick and didn't nurture it.  Ditto for Kreibich nectarine.  The small plants seem to have minimal curl.

Genetic Dwarf - quite a project.  I built sort of a shed over two of them, polyethylene cover in winter to prevent curl.  We'll see how that works.  Containerized, kept out of rain for winter, works but takes a lot of watering and attention.

Also I have a fan trained (sort of) Nainamo Peach.  So far no leaf curl, 2 years, grew to about 10 feet tall last year.  Have not tried the peaches.  Lots of flower buds now.

Seedling of Oregon Curl Free - four years producing now, about six years old.  Almost (almost) zero PLC.  Maybe a couple of leaves.

This was about 1/4 of the crop last mid-August.

 

These are really good, home grown peaches fresh, in pie, or canned.

I have tried grafting this onto Lovell without much success.  Two whip & tongue grafts on Lovell did not take.  One bud graft took but I left it out in the winter and it died.  I have not tried cuttings or grafting onto plum.  I have not tried peach cuttings.  I had forgotten about grafting onto plum.  I do have several of Hollywood around the yard.  That might be a good idea to try.  I ruined the stratified seeds this winter, they cooked on seedling mat.  I planted a row of the seeds in my garden to overwinter.  We'll see if they germinate.

Jafar I'm happy to share scion from this tree if you want some, or bud wood when cambium is slipping.

Mine are all no spray.  

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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February 25, 2022 - 10:24 am

Very nice !!

How many of those peach cultivars came grafted? That may bear into general tree health especially in in the hills beyond Vancouver. Even in grafting attempts about the rates of grafts in percentages that succeed.

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jafar
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February 25, 2022 - 11:11 am

Daniel, thanks for the reminder about your seedling.  I very much would like some budwood from it this summer.   I'd forgotten that its on my mental desired list.  If you don't give it a name, I'll have to put something on the label.

The one that came with my house, I've shared scions of, and called it "Fern Prairie" for the area.  I hate to add a name to circulation, since I have to think this is one of the curl-resistant cultivars, but I can't place it.  Maybe in the future, genetic testing will be ubiquitous, and we'll find its a synonym for another.  

But yours is a seedling.  Unique.

John, I vaguely recall generally hearing about the European on Japanese grafting.  I tend to keep them separate, but will do either to peach.  But I have been thinking I would put Japanese or Pluot, or maybe cherry/plum hybrid onto the Hollywood if I graft it.    I'm really liking Splash pluot more an more.  I currently have it on a 4 in 1, so I'd probably have it as a sole variety, than have 2 Hollywoods, for instance.  Also, I'm likely boron deficient in my orchard as well.  I will likely add some this winter, I have a box.  I know trees are very sensitive and too much is probably worse than none.  

I've never done a soil test.  I have lots of variability in my yard, and to me it doesn't make sense to get an average of areas that are different from each other, because its the specific drip zone that matters.  I can understand if I were planting out a grid orchard the average would be much better than nothing.   

Also, the soil around each of my 40+ trees has a different history.   I think I can make some generalities though.  Overall my PH is low, and surely calcium deficient, mostly heavy, nitrogen deficient, potassium rich and probably almost no boron.

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John S
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February 27, 2022 - 10:32 pm

Most soils around Portland are low in calcium, zinc, and boron.  I very carefully calculated the amount to use per square yard. Should be easy for you.

John S
PDX OR

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jafar
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March 1, 2022 - 3:18 pm

@John S  You know I'm not afraid of math, but in this case, I prefer to take advantage of your personal experience.

Please share how, and how much, you amend with Borax.

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John S
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March 1, 2022 - 5:39 pm

I got the book, "The Intelligent Gardener" by Steve Solomon from the library, and made the calculations from there.  What I had saved was really just the exact amount of  boron, manganese, zinc, calcium, etc. that I needed to put per square yard.  I recycled them years ago, because it was based on my deficit in those minerals. If I add those minerals again, I won't be at that same amount of deficit, so it won't be useful to me nor to you.   I wish I could tell you something helpful, but I'm not sure I can help more than that. Sorry.
John S
PDX OR

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jafar
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March 2, 2022 - 9:22 am

I see.  So you only applied it one time, years ago?

"The commercial guideline for soil application of B in Washington is a surface-broadcast application of 3 lb actual B per acre, made once every three years."

 

http://treefruit.wsu.edu/boron/

According to my calculations, that's about 1.6 grams, or 1 cubic centimeter per yard of Borax which is about 17% boron, or a little less than 1/4 teaspoon.

Does that sound about the right order of magnitude John?

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
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March 2, 2022 - 3:12 pm

I'm a bit amused about the preceding posts.  My wife and I are always amused at just how poor we are at "math".  Yeah, figuring those things out from the literature to your own area is always a challenge... Smile

Here, because I'm always apparently the anomalous one, I want to go back to the first post in this thread in which Jafar said:

"I've got 2 Hollywood plum trees, grown from cuttings, in the ground, thanks to a generous member who gave me a bunch of cuttings."

Jafar:  I meant to ask this much earlier, but due to my limited time on the internet....  I've been curious as to what time of year you got the 'Hollywood' cuttings (--dormant, or growing--) and, in whichever case, how did you root them and grow them.  Just like so many others on the Forum, I haven't grown Prunus varieties from cuttings.  I continue to learn just like everybody else.  All knowledge leading to potential success is valuable.

Reinettes.

P.S. -- Daniel those gorgeous photos can only make me jealous. Wink

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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March 2, 2022 - 4:56 pm

Reinettes said:

"... because I'm (Reinettes) always the anomalous one ..."

I guess I'm feeling a bit anomalous too. 

I talked a bit about local experiences with apricots or other northern out of the area trees as well as far as what happens after they are brought in as have you, and can't (just yet) really leaving it alone. 

I support the idea of growing peaches and apricots as mentioned all over this thread as long as best advised to curate cuttings over being curated as a grafted clone. The reason why stems from better understanding inside of the involvement of a immune system inside any plant. The best way to understand that is to read and raise questions regarding the following highlights:

Externally linked + Condensed Information (highlights)

Besides trading ideas how best to tackle methods of propagation, we need also to recognize the lack of ability of a plant community (the highlights) regarding loss of original habitat (the highlights). With that in mind it's expected to be more sensible to not graft peaches to anything because it is out of it's own community. Taking cuttings from a peach makes more sense but there are constraints there as well. Grafting peaches onto a temporary root that works short term until a peach can root can make some sense. Thus the easiest and most likely way (to create a long lived peach) is to bud onto almond seeds since I have them available and germinating from what I think is a 'Halls Hardy' almond tree that I collected from last year. It's an old timers peach/almond method out of California to achieve fast growth and less emphasis on short term (stress per highlights) problems while grafted.

I'm all ears as to seeing how you all gather prunus and root them, so how did Jafar do it ??

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jafar
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March 3, 2022 - 12:14 pm

I think Daniel can comment better on rooting plum cuttings.  I think he has some excellent blog posts about it already.  Apparently some varieties are prone to rooting and others not.   Hollywood is the former.

I got maybe 20 or 30 cuttings.  The timing was concurrent with the HOS scion exchange / propagation fair I believe, so that would have been about now.  Dormant, hardened, previous seasons growth.

Most of them I sliced off some bark in vertical strips on the base end, dipped in rooting hormone, and stuck into a super well draining medium - probably turface and tried to keep watered and humid.  Probably with a plastic cover.  All of those failed.

The remaining 10 I stabbed into my raised bed vegetable garden and watered a couple of times a week in the growing season.   several leafed out, maybe most.  About 3 had enough growth I suspected roots.  One did well, another okay.  I transplanted them to a permanent location in the dormant season.  Maybe the "okay" runt stayed in the vegetable garden for another year and hung out with the thistles and weeds :(.  Its that one that I'm considering grafting to pluot or something.  The more vigorous one I'm hoping may give me my first fruit this year.  They both had some bloom last year.

This is a recreation from spotty memory, so I may have muddled some of the facts, especially regarding time.

Stab in the ground near the collection tree is my favorite form of propagation, followed by stab in the ground where I want it to grow, then stab in the ground in a cultivated and protected area.

Black currants are the king of easy propagation in my mind (well, and blackberries but that's tip rooting in place).

I've had success stabbing Lewis (I think) hazelnut, and some figs too.  Before I was married, I had grow lights and trays, and stuff, would probably have mist propagation by now, but not all of the decision makers in this household share my priorities 🙂

Edit:  I think I just dug up a picture of those last 3 taken May 07, 2019:

hollywood-screenshot-plum-2022-03-03-124641.png

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
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March 3, 2022 - 4:33 pm

Jafar,

Thanks for the information and the photo....  In-house differences of opinion? Laugh  I feel your pain.  ...Wish I had a greenhouse with a misting set-up.

I can understand the difference between "trying to do everything right", like using rooting hormones, sterile soilless mixes, and such, only to find that the others which weren't treated with kid gloves were, somehow, more willing to root and grow!?  We do the best that we can, but sometimes the individual varieties have a different preference.  I've noticed this over the years.  One can never tell.  Consequently, it's not uncommon for me to try 2 or even 3 different methods or rooting substrates with something that I really want to propagate.  I always appreciate the ones that are OK with "just getting stuck in the ground".  That has tended to work with the few, solitary, relic Philadelphus lewisii that I've encountered around Lewis County.  [Both named for Meriweather Lewis, of course.]

Thanks again.  Something to keep in mind!

Reinettes

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
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March 3, 2022 - 5:51 pm

I have never expected anything plum related to work as dormant cuttings as far as getting them to root and starting out this time of year (late winter). I took some pear shoots from new wood last month and treated them very nicely in my bathroom window sill. One of about 8 might work (looks hopeful) so I kept the one and discarded the rest. A month ago (mid-winter) is too late for pear too. 

Before all of this I had a small batch of plum and one peach that I collected about the first day of winter. They were placed in the same window sill per pear above. In total it was about 50 - 50. The half that failed were reportedly easy to root cultivars and the cultivars that did root are reported as difficult. 

The reason I must have had great success on hard to root (ie. toka and the rest) comes thay were not summer shaded like my frost peach and normally easy to root mar 2624 plum were. 

I wanted to throw some more advice on the advantage of picking early wood and using thicker sun exposed wood so I pulled up this from a couple of years ago by Dubyadee:

Link to another HOS topic /rooting of Frost peach

The method I used that seems to work well for me for moisture replenishment is VF11. I kind of discovered it by accident while trying to force flowers from plum branches Dec 2020. They flowered and rooted in three weeks! The dilution rate to water that I used was twice the concentration per labeled instructions. As of now the last one to root looks (HOS upload) like this:

Hybrid Rooted Plum in vf11/water

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John S
PDX OR
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March 3, 2022 - 10:26 pm

Jafar said,"

I see.  So you only applied it one time, years ago?

"The commercial guideline for soil application of B in Washington is a surface-broadcast application of 3 lb actual B per acre, made once every three years."

 

http://treefruit.wsu.edu/boron/

According to my calculations, that's about 1.6 grams, or 1 cubic centimeter per yard of Borax which is about 17% boron, or a little less than 1/4 teaspoon.

Does that sound about the right order of magnitude John?"

Yes, I applied it once, and those are the steps I went through. Like I said, probably easier for you than about anyone else I know. I am reasonably good at math, so I just did each step carefully and wrote it down on paper, rechecking, because, as you said, it's easy to overdo it with boron, even though we are typically severely low in it around here.

JohN S
PDX OR

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jafar
549 Posts
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March 4, 2022 - 10:01 am

Yeah, apparently the difference between insufficient and excessive is only 2-3X.   It's a pretty narrow range that plants want.  If the plants are surviving and generally healthy, it sounds like its better to err on the side of too little.

So if it needs 1/2 teaspoon, even a tablespoon would be way too much!

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John S
PDX OR
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March 5, 2022 - 9:31 am

The soil test showed my soil to be tragically low in boron, calcium, and zinc.  Apparently, my guess is that my calculations seem to have been accurate, because some trees flowered and fruited that hadn't done it before, and everything is doing well.  Because they continue to do well, I am going to stay pat.  Like you suggested, no need to mess with it if it seems to be working.

John S
PDX OR

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
518 Posts
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March 9, 2022 - 7:25 am

I grew Hollywood from dormant cuttings I stuck into vegetable raised beds.  I'm not sure if I scored them and used rooting hormone but I think I did.  I have three fruiting trees from those, roughly six years old, about eight to ten feet tall and one with that as rootstock and others as scion.

One year I installed some pathway edging and used sticks cut from Shiro plum to bold the edging in place.  They were about a half inch thick and a foot long.  I drive them into the ground for about half their length.  Several of those grew.  They were not meant to grow, so got no special treatment at all.  They rooted and I transplanted one, which grew into a tree.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
370 Posts
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March 10, 2022 - 6:40 pm

Wow Daniel!  I guess that I'm going to need to get a bit more adventurous in my attempts at propagating Prunus from cuttings.  Always good to have insights from the experiences of others.  Thanks!

Reinettes.

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