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Footies (Fruit sox) for codling moth
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miker
2 Posts
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1
July 20, 2017 - 9:48 am

Decided to try the footies with Surround this year as sold by the HOS. We were really hopeful that this would help since we usually lose all of our apples to codling moth (we only have two producing trees with a few others that should bear next year). We're in western Colorado by the way. Here's our opinion of the footies so far:

First of all the Surround never completely goes into solution and no matter how long we poured it back and forth over the footies, quite a bit never attaches. Still, we were able to get a fairly good coating of clay on the footies. 

Most of our apples still have codling moth damage, they simply lay eggs right through the footies despite the kaolin.

Now, a vast majority of our apples are falling off the tree (we used twist ties to attach the footies to the stem when apples were about the diameter of a quarter). 

In short . . . not very happy with the footies -  they seem like a waste of money and time.

Anyone out there have better success with these against codling moth and if so, what do you suggest?

Thinking of trying paper bags (don't like the idea of our apples sitting in ziplock plastic in our intense sun) next year although we're not crazy about having to remove them at the proper time to color the apples. 

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jafar
472 Posts
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July 21, 2017 - 9:30 am

miker,

 

Welcome to the forum.  I'm sorry to hear about your poor experience with the fruit socks. I have to admit that I'm too lazy to coat the socks with Surround myself, but back when Ted did them I thought they were useful.  They were definitely saturated and shedding Surround.  It probably needs to be pretty thick to be enough of an irritant to dissuade the codling moths from landing on them long enough to make their deposit.

Is it possible that the apples were already stung when you put on the footies?

I've used Ziplock bags in the past, with the lower corners cut off.  I think they kept out the moths, but earwigs seem to love them.  I've seen people make small holes in the bags.

Something like an organza gift bag, if inexpensive enough and UV stable seems like it could work well.  It wouldn't touch most of the surface of the apple while it was small.

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davem
164 Posts
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July 21, 2017 - 10:28 am

I second Jafar's guess that quarter-sized is too late.  I put my fruit sox on when the apples are a bit smaller than a dime.  Also I just twist the sox and tuck the twist into the sock vs. a twist tie or anything else. 

The sox do take time to install, and it can feel overwhelming to put a sock on every single apple. But as I have told others, you don't have to put a sock on every apple, you only have to put a sock on the apples that you want to eat 🙂

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miker
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July 26, 2017 - 7:48 am

Thanks for the replies.

I don't think we put the footies on too late based on recommendations for apples in our area and my own calculations using growing degree days for codling moth in our area. Didn't see the oviposition marks until at least three weeks after putting them on and most of them have an expanded hole in the footie above the hole in the apple. My wife thinks they were smaller than a quarter diameter when we put them on. I suspect the problem is, as suggested, that the Surround was not a thick enough layer to ward the moths off. Not sure we can change that since we worked quite a while to get what we could to stick.

I think organza would have the same problem - moths would oviposit through the tiny holes.

I don't mind the time it takes to put a bag on every apple, it wasn't that bad, except that it didn't work and thus feels like a waste of time and money.

I'm going to try paper bags next year and see how that goes.

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jafar
472 Posts
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July 26, 2017 - 11:16 am

I did some poking around and was told that reports with the nylon footies have been hit and miss.  Some swear by them, others report results similar to yours.   I'm not sure what the key factor is on whether they are effective.  Sounds like you were paying attention and now what to look for with respect to timing.

For the organza, I think the key would be that the bag not touch the fruit flesh.

Please report back on how the paper bagging works for you.

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John S
1010 Posts
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July 28, 2017 - 5:44 pm

Hey miker,

Great topic.  I have used the surround soaked footies many times to great success. Each one of those times, though, Ted Swensen soaked them himself before selling them to me.  I have never soaked them myself, but I could tell that there was quite a bit in each one, as they "blew smoke" when I moved them.  I wonder if a bit of dish soap in the solution, like just a drop, would help them to stick to the footies? Now I'm nervous, because I had planned to buy them and soak them my self next year. Actually I planned to do it this year, but time got away from me.

I have been mostly using ziplocs to good success the last couple of years since HOS booted Ted from the device he created. I always cut off the entire bottom of the ziploc.  I tried to contact him through Prima consulting but had no luck.  I may have to post myself and see what difficulties I have in trying to make it work. 

John S
PDX OR

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Bunchgrasser
4 Posts
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7
July 31, 2017 - 1:11 pm

Throwing in my support for Ziplock sandwich bags with corners cut off. I've used them over several seasons with generally good success. The clear bags also let you see coloring as the apples get close to harvest.

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Rooney
457 Posts
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8
August 18, 2017 - 3:15 pm

Something added to the mix of clay might be Just-I-fly on the bottom left side of this link. It would be interesting only if it would be natural and if that it has an effect to moths, not just flys. (ie -the one-two punch effect) If any farmer has ever purchased the product could we please have the applicable patent number so we could read all the fine print?

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jim roden
near Estacada
8 Posts
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9
October 12, 2017 - 6:37 pm

I've had great success with the footies. This year I reused footies for a second time with no surround and they were almost as good. I think my biggest nemesis is apple maggot - the apples that got no footies were 100% inedible and with footies, 95% good. The few coddling moths that get through are minor and don't sway my plan to use more footies and strip all apples that don't get covered. Jim

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GH
Battle Ground, WA
70 Posts
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10
March 3, 2018 - 10:20 pm

Surround-soaked footies have been a godsend in my young orchard, with almost 100% success in the last couple of years. By using these fruit socks (or "maggot barriers", my favorite moniker) and choosing disease resistant apple trees, I've had some nice success in growing good-tasting, pretty, organic apples.  

In my (limited) experience it has been important to buy the thick footies; the other type is too thin, if used each sock should be doubled. I'm getting at least a couple of seasons' use, throwing them away only when they start to shred.

My method is to pour some Surround (kaolin clay) into a large bucket, add water, then stir, making a whitish slurry.  I place the maggot barriers into the bucket, stir again to ensure that all of them get covered, then let them soak for a half hour or longer (there's no time limit here, it won't hurt the socks to soak for much longer).  I then spread the socks on a window screen to dry for a few days, where rain won't reach them.

A helpful hint is to wear gloves when applying the socks, since the kaolin can be an irritant. Regular gloves are too thick for me, so I wear surgical (latex) gloves.  

These footies also seem to keep birds away from the fruit.  Last summer I removed some of the socks in late August to see if the apples would achieve a better color than the ones that remained covered. Almost immediately birds started pecking the uncovered apples!  I quickly re-covered the undamaged apples and decided not to experiment again. 

It is time-consuming to prepare the footies and to place one on each apple, thinning as I go. The reward is being able to bite into a maggot-free apple that I grew myself, it doesn't get much better! 

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John S
1010 Posts
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March 12, 2018 - 10:50 pm

Great post GH.

I agree with Jafar and Dave-quarter is too big. Theyr'e already in even though you might not see them.  I go about dime sized too. Usually May 1 or so.  I am hoping this year to be organized enough to soak them myself, but I still haven;'t done that yet. I've had great success with them.  My hunch is that like GH, if you do it right, it works great.

JohN S
PDX OR

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
150 Posts
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March 14, 2018 - 9:27 am

I have some recollection of overhearing Ted Swenson commenting on his surround application evolution. Hazy, but imagination suggests a jump off point. He was using a washing machine to apply the surround, I'd assume an agitator type. Not the family laundry but probably a back-porch located, dedicated, cheap find, not connected to the usual plumbing.  .....or was that a dryer?Confused

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sylviaa
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May 7, 2018 - 5:50 pm

Hi, HOS folks. I used the Surround-soaked footies from Ted for several years. We never used anything to fasten them, just twisted them around the stem. They worked great. With them, probably 95% of our apples were good. The one year we didn't use them, almost of the all apples were inedible and unusable, too riddled with pests to even try using. For the last couple years we tried buying the footies from Raintree and using them just plain, with no Surround. The first time, year before last, it went OK--the majority of the apples were good. Last year, disaster--almost as bad as no footies at all. 

So what I want to know is, is anybody soaking and drying the footies for sale? If not, where do you buy the Surround? How much Surround do you use per how much water? Do you just soak the footies, or do you do anything else to them (agitate, whatever)? I don't have a top-loading washing machine so can't do that. 

Oh--and where would you get thicker footies? The ones from Raintree are thin.

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jafar
472 Posts
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May 8, 2018 - 10:48 pm

sylviaa,

The Home Orchard Society sells nylon footies.  You can order them from this site.  They come with a small baggie of Surround for you to prepare at home.  There are instructions.

 

http://www.homeorchardsociety......fruit-sox/

http://www.homeorchardsociety......rotection/

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sylviaa
10 Posts
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May 25, 2018 - 2:56 pm

Hi, all. Reporting in. On May 7 I ordered 1,008 footies from Raintree (ordered before seeing Jafar's message, next time I'd get them from HOS) and 25 lbs of Surround--that was the smallest amt I could order--from Grow Organic. The Surround arrived a couple days later. The footies didn't arrive until about two days ago--16 days after I ordered them.

We took two yard buckets, those big plastic buckets everybody has, and in each bucket we put about 10 cups of Surround and a few gallons of water. I did not actually measure, but scooped the Surround out with a one-cup measure so I have a rough idea. We stirred the mixture well, dumped half the footies in each bucket, and then stirred some more. We left the buckets sitting there for about 24 hours, stirring whenever it occurred to us to do so. The clay settled into the bottom of the water pretty quickly after each stirring, but we just kept stirring it back up every so often. 

Yesterday we got out some old window screens and laid them on bricks on the shelves in our greenhouse. We stirred the footies again and then glopped them sopping wet onto the screens, spreading them out some for better drying. They are now drying in the greenhouse.

On Sunday, during thinning, the footies will be applied to our roughly dime-sized apples.

We have Rubinette apples and they tend to be later than most varieties so we're lucky that way--lots of other varieties would be too big by now.

To be continued...

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John S
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May 27, 2018 - 1:37 pm

Thanks Sylviaa,

The practicality of making it happen is really key for these.

John S
PDX OR

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Don Ricks
14 Posts
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June 14, 2018 - 9:48 pm

I have tried a variety of devices in a variety of different areas in Seattle and this seems to be my observation:

    1.  If you are in an area where there is a high codling moth pressure then you need paper sacks or plastic bags.

     2.   If you have moderate codling moth pressure then you need the super-strong foot sox soaked in kaolin clay.

      3.   If you have low codling moth pressure then even weak foot sox will work.

 

    And the foot sox will always work for apple maggots.

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John S
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June 14, 2018 - 10:31 pm

Until I observe or hear otherwise, that is going to be how I think about it. Thanks for formulating it into a coherent view.
John S
PDX OR

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penorman
3 Posts
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September 3, 2018 - 12:43 pm

I bought nylon footies and Surround from HOS earlier this year and followed the directions carefully, applying them to about 150 apples.  They had absolutely no effect.  Treated apples were just as likely to be damaged as untreated ones.  There were typically small holes through the footy right at the point of entry.IMG_4588.JPG

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John S
1010 Posts
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September 10, 2018 - 8:39 pm

I am wary whenever I see one tightly wrapped around an apple like that. I feel like it makes the gaps so wide that it's easy for bugs to get in there.  I try to make sure they're evenly and thickly wrapped around them.  Also, I'm not sure how I'll do on getting the surround really soaked into the footie.

John S
PDX OR

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Don Ricks
14 Posts
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September 10, 2018 - 10:13 pm

I have no doubt Penorman had the bad experience he reported.   My suspicion is that he just happens to be in a high codling moth population area.   So,  he either needs some sort of spray for the entire tree  or if he is to go individually on the apples he needs ziploc bags with slits to let the water out.....or #2 bleached white paper sacks.  If new apple trees ever get planted I might suggest  Spartan or Liberty as they seem to be naturally resistant to bugs.....(they get bugs but just not as badly as other varieties.)   One final note:   I can practically guarantee that the only damage Penorman had was from codling moth and not from apple maggot fly.....so if he cuts the bad section out,  he still has a better apple than if he had used no foot sox at all.   

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penorman
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September 11, 2018 - 8:01 pm

In response to John S, I don't mean to be argumentative since I just wanted to report my particular experience.  But at the risk of stating the obvious, the footies were not tightly wrapped around the apple when I applied them since the apples were then the size of a quarter, per the directions.  The apples grew into the initially-loose footies, stretching them.  

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John S
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September 12, 2018 - 4:17 pm

We're just sharing our experiences. No arguments. I didn't mean tightly wrapped when the footies were placed on the apples.  My experience that I was referring to  was when the apple grew to where the footie became tightly wrapped and the bug found easier access.  I want people to see your experiences and they can try to figure it out for themselves. 

I value people's perspectives because that is how I can learn in the future.

John S
PDX OR

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tonyb
6 Posts
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October 18, 2018 - 12:37 pm

Very interesting thread.  I'm in MA and used ziplock bags this year and was generally disappointed with the experience -- too much water in the bags (even with the corners clipped) and earwigs in the bags.

I've purchased the nylon Maggot Barriers and am considering coating them with Surround - but it looks like there is no consensus on the effectiveness of this.  

I also have purchased some of the Japanese apple bags - but wonder if earwigs would be a problem with these as well (since they have vents).

Interested in folks thoughts about each of these approaches...

  • spray fruitlets with Surround then add Maggot Barriers
  • spray fruitlets with Surround then bag
  • spray fruitlets with Surround, add Maggot Barriers, then bag

Interested in opinions...

Thx

Tony B

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Don Ricks
14 Posts
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25
October 18, 2018 - 9:52 pm

TonyB   I am pretty sure (without my checking)  that you get more summer rain than we do in the Pacific Northwest.   We get our rain in the Winter,  not the summer.   And so your bugs and your results may be different.   

  But I do have some thoughts:

--   I have not found earwigs to be a big problem.  Usually (to my observation)  they do not go after the fruit.   But pretty much any enclosure you use (except for foot sox)   will attract earwigs,  including the Japanese fuji bags.  So,  for me,  I just live with them.

 --I would recommend you experiment with different approaches but to me the simplest would be the #2 White bleached paper sacks or the Fuji bags and I would favor those over the foot sox.....unless you know you don't have much of a codling moth problem,  in which case the foot sox would be easier.

--   An organization called "City Fruit"  here in Seattle is using protective bee netting over the entire tree.   For smaller trees this is an option.  Wilson Orchard and Vineyard Supply in Oregon.   These nets may last 3 to 5 years.

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John S
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October 18, 2018 - 10:52 pm

I stopped cutting the corners of the ziplocs when they still stored water, stuck, and molded.  I cut off the entire bottom of the ziploc and it works well.  My main problem is that I can't cover the whole orchard before the bugs have gotten in there.  Nothing works well if the bugs are already in.

I am predicting, but not promising, that I am going to try to actually soak my own fruit sox this year. I has worked well for me in the past when I bought them.  I can't find Ted Swensen to do it any more, so I 'm on my own.

John S
PDX OR

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sylviaa
10 Posts
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October 18, 2018 - 11:42 pm

Hi, all. I'm reporting back after harvest. (We have Rubinettes, which run late, is why so late.) As I reported earlier, I used footies from Raintree (next time I'll use HOS) soaked in Surround from GrowOrganics.com. I explained the process I used in a couple earlier comments. We footied the fruit when most of them were dime-sized, though some were bigger and some came later and didn't get done. We had almost complete success. We had a large crop, though nowhere near as large as last year's. They do just vary from year to year. AND... ALMOST ALL of them were beautiful, whole, clean apples. We will use the same procedure next year. It is labor-intensive but it is worth it. The difference between having a usable apple crop and having essentially no crop. Huge thanks to all of you for your help, reports, and recommendations. 

One of the things I love about this method of fruit protection is the expressions on the neighbor's faces. But since they didn't ask, I didn't say, why I was covering my apples with shoe-store footies.

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Don Ricks
14 Posts
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28
October 19, 2018 - 5:09 am

We had so little rain (essentially none)  for the months of July and August here in Seattle  that I put foot sox on and then hand-sprayed the foot sox that were on the trees with kaolin clay   and the kaolin clay (surround)   was still very much there 2 months later....in fact if I had just sprayed the Surround on the trees I wonder if I couldn't have gotten away with just one spray this past summer if I had just used Surround and not even put on any  foot sox......but that would have been risky as rain would mess that up.

A second note:   Using paper sacks on the apples that redden up nicely when you use a more opaque paper sack than just the flimsy #2 bag I was able to stencil people's names on the apples and then remove the stencil two weeks later to show an apple with the name on it.   If I knew how to send a foto I could post an apple here with my name on it.

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
150 Posts
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29
October 19, 2018 - 10:17 pm

Don Ricks said
   If I knew how to send a foto I could post an apple here with my name on it.  

I'm running on a mac, don't know if that's far different than others but what I have done: drag my photo to the desktop, open it from there. I have an option to 'markup' and then 'adjust size' (usually my pics were rejected for being oversize) I drop off the last digit of hight and width pixels and that seems to make the size acceptable; close the marked up picture. Click the 'upload attachments' button from this site and drag the marked up small pic/thumbnail from the desktop to the 'drag files here area'; click the upload button.....          Or, after sizing the pic and clicking the upload attachments button, click the 'add files' button and select your thumbnail from the dropdown. Start the upload.

Hope this helps .

I'd love to see your stenciled results.

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
450 Posts
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November 15, 2018 - 2:41 pm

Maybe it was in here and I missed it.  What about just using surround without the footies?  Would that work, and would it be easier?

I tried bags without surround.  No better than no bag at all, and I could swear the bagged apples were worse than un-bagged apples.  More maggots and insect damage in general.

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GH
Battle Ground, WA
70 Posts
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31
November 21, 2018 - 1:23 am

When I first tried nylon maggot barriers on my apples, it was with the thin footies and no Surround; the experiment was a depressing failure. The next year I doubled up on the socks and soaked them in Surround, that experiment worked beautifully. Now I make sure to buy the heavy-duty maggot barriers, so there's no need to double up, and I always soak them.

The only problem this year was with a few of my late-season Braeburn apples. I had failed to wrap some of the maggot barriers properly around the apples and didn't do an inspection later in the summer, so birds were able to eat the tops of these apples. It sure keeps life interesting.

Surround without the footies may be adequate in areas with little or no summer rain, such as the Pacific Northwest. Even with no rain to wash it off, regular Surround spraying would be required so that apples continue to be covered as they grow. It seems to me that the Surround/maggot barrier work upfront would amount to less hassle than spraying Surround multiple times a season.  Since Surround is by no means a cheap product, it seems likely that the cost would be much higher also; added to this cost would be the extra amount of Surround lost due to overspray, which could be significant.   

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sylviaa
10 Posts
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32
November 21, 2018 - 2:12 pm

I love HOS, I love the forums, I love this thread. Where would I be without you? Thank you for another successful year and the best apples I've ever eaten. And sauced. And dried. And given to friends and neighbors. And traded for other cool produce. 

If anyone needs help this next year in figuring out the process of soaking and drying and using footies with Surround, ask me! It takes time but it's worth it, and believe me, if I can do it, you can do it.

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John S
1010 Posts
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33
November 22, 2018 - 8:26 pm

Thanks Sylviaa,

You rock! I think I will be taking you up on this pretty soon.
John S
PDX OR

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Agolds6
5 Posts
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34
April 26, 2019 - 8:05 am

I tried surround coated foot sox last year.  Indifferent results on coddling moth.  Perhaps I tied them too tight.  This year i will use a different fastening method that allows the footie to be looser.  Could participants please share how you fasten the footies?

I will also be spraying surround on the footies to keep the coating thick.  I am using much more surround than what HOS provides with footies they sell this year

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Rooney
457 Posts
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35
April 26, 2019 - 9:49 am

I feel that customers such as Agolds6 might be looking at misleading pictures on this thread as per post #19. Nobody has yet to submit pictured evidence of the apple before being picked, and as I know from my own experience (not using sox) the entry points on the sides of apples (in mine it's asian pears) had leaves or twigs against the side of the fruit in the first place. These are last generation infections where the leaves and other hiding places are in abundance. So we would be not so miss led if pictures are submitted prior to picking them. 

Because here is what happens as it always does in the first generation is that the egg gets laid near or upon the tiny fruit. Once hatched the larva seeks the best hiding spot in the center-point of the old flower for a days or so resting place. Then when it gets going there then it must be admitted there is not much to do if you have a loose sox, but that fruit will have had it's seeds eaten and will become part of the trees wave of recycling (ie "june drop").

The last generation and the time when the sox are a problem for codling moth lavae to take the rest on the fruits is what counts. Then as per the same thing as before the last generation little guy needs to hide out near or not far from the apple for a while. At the time of the year the fruits are so large and the leaves have fully grown there are far more actively sought out hiding places then just the old flowering point of entry anymore. 

In other words we are only misleading ourselves by listening to misleading photographs. I have NEVER picked any my mature asian pears with a codling moth hole in the side without a leaf or twig hiding place touching that point, have you? 

Let us be more observing and outsmart them. 🙂

In the mean time if you want to really try at the level of 100% then make sure you inspect all around the sox at the times the female moths are actively laying (last generations) and before such a time they hatch.

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
150 Posts
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36
April 26, 2019 - 11:49 am

Ah, goldmine! That's worthy information.

Additionally;

There are no less than 5 articles on bagging fruit ON THIS SITE!Surprised Who knew?  About 1/2 of them are footies specific, one describing the (original?!) method of applying the 'Surround' to them; the others relating to paper bagging, also with good experiential info. 

From the Homepage, under the Calendar are listed- Fruit Growing Articles. The "Apple" category has five articles on bagging. There's a pesky 'next page' button hiding at the bottom of the article list within the category, camouflaged from my visual sensors anyway... for years.     Another article under "Trees" discusses the earliest footies adopters method of application to fruitlet and timing. (at fruit thinning, within 40 days of petal drop to influence biennial bearing)

WinkLots of pertinent good reads here.

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Rooney
457 Posts
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37
April 26, 2019 - 4:10 pm

Really good suggestion James when you direct to those good reads cause they are good!

Further evidence leaning towards my own bias of habits for MY codling moth events is by comparing the 2 class types of asian pears I have. One class has a permanent hiding place in the flower end like that of a real pear while the other class is a flat one after the flower falls off. Which  for the same reason I call the ones that are of the hiding place class type "codling magnets".

According to schedule I defruit all the magnetic fruits that I grafted in my regular asian pears about July 7 and remove them off site in case they over winter here.

So far it's been working pretty much the way it's supposed to.
*So; if anybody wants MY kinds of codling moths for free let me know in advance so I don't throw mine out (*laughing on that one Wink).

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penorman
3 Posts
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38
April 27, 2019 - 8:06 am

As the poster of the picture in post 19, described as "misleading" in post 35, I must humbly protest!  I applied footies and Surround to 150 apples per the HOS instructions.  I left another 150 untreated.  There was absolutely no difference between the treated and untreated applies in terms of damage.  Roughly 80% of both had damage.

The theory in post 35 seems to be that the footy/Surround method only works if there is never any contact between the fruit and a leaf or twig during the fruit's development.  First, I don't recall that keeping all leaves and twigs strictly away from the fruit at all times during its development was part of the directions.  Second, I am quite sure that while some of the damaged fruits were touching a leaf or twig at some point, many were not.

I think it's great that some folks have success with the footy method.  I did not.  And I think it is a little uncool for my report of my experience to be dismissed as "misleading".

IMG_4589-resized.jpgIMG_4591-resized.jpg

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Rooney
457 Posts
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39
April 27, 2019 - 11:33 am

Thanks for saying that distance could have factored in which did answer my #35 question. But can you give us an idea where you and your experiments with sox went on? My post #37 is telling of my location under the owl, but I forgot to say I have been doing my experiments for years now ..so hopefully you to not feel like I seemed to pick on any of your posts. Lots of people don't understand the many aspects of location, rain, and even the codling moth model differences of habits that vary from differing parts of the continent.

At my place I chose to try and prove the effectiveness of specific chosen pear cultivars to become sacrificial. I chose the first 1964 discovery of pear esters as an attractant for codling moths. And articles since 1964 having had proved these attract both the males and females, that also some apples have variances in ability to attract codling as a reverse escape strategy. Why pears in our PNW are not more prone than apples (per personal conversations) are more puzzling than ever since my codlings do, but this is the scientific source of variances in all things:

Its biological significance is, however, not entirely clear, since it is found mainly in pear and only in some apple cultivars (Jennings et al., 1964; Berger and Drawert, 1984; Willner et al., 2013)."

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sylviaa
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April 27, 2019 - 1:53 pm

Answering some questions asked earlier in this topic. We're in St. Johns--up on the peninsula where the two rivers converge north of Portland. We buy the footies, soak them in Surround, let them dry, thin the apples and pears to one or two per bunch, and put a Surround footie on each fruit. We do not fasten the footies on with anything--we just kind of twist the neck around the stem. We also carefully clean up all dropped fruit, and rake the leaves when they drop.

The years we did not do this whole process, we lost almost our entire crop. At least 85% but I think probably more like 90%. The years we do this, we lose maybe 5%--could be a little more than that, I don't keep that close track. I realize that it could be coincidence, and that we're just having more and less buggy years, but this record is convincing enough for me.

Again, I am happy to help talk/walk anyone through the process.

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sylviaa
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April 27, 2019 - 1:57 pm

I should have said--we try to get all the fruit covered when it's dime- to nickle-sized. Sometimes they get away from us a little and are larger. If we wait until quarter-sized they're much more likely to be invaded. Also, should have said, we can't reach the fruit at the top of some trees, even with the orchard ladder. So it doesn't get protected and we lose that fruit.

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John S
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May 4, 2019 - 9:41 pm

Great info Sylviaa.

I just tried to make the surround covered fruit sox for the first time.  I'm excited. Article to follow in Pome News. You inspired me!
Thanks,
John S

PDX OR

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GH
Battle Ground, WA
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May 12, 2019 - 12:44 am

I've had good luck with this company, having ordered from them for several years.  Last year I underestimated the number of footies that were needed (more apples than expected, a very good thing!), placed an order on Sunday evening, and received them on Wednesday afternoon. Less than a 3-day turnaround was good customer service, in my opinion.

The heavy-duty footies are $12.95 for 144, with free shipping.

http://www.maggotbarriers.com

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John S
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May 17, 2019 - 8:53 pm

I just made the fruit sox for the first time and it was fun.  Then I did an experiment and made them with native local clay instead of buying the surround kaolin clay.  We'll see how it works.

John S
PDX OR

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tonyb
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July 22, 2019 - 7:29 am

I'm out in MA and it has been a very wet season!  We have significant pest pressure -- CM, PC and OFM.  As I mentioned in my previous post, last season I had tried the ziplocks and was a bit disappointed.

This year I doubled up on the layers.

For the apples, I first put on untreated Maggot Barriers.  For the second layer, I either used #2 white paper bags, small cloth sacks with draw strings, or Fuji Apple bags.  So far, I've had very few pulled off in the high wind or rain we've had this season.

For the peaches and nectarines, I covered with Maggot Barriers and then paper Clemson fruit bags.  About 10% of the peaches/nectarines have detached so far.  I'm assuming this is just normal fruit drop.

While more time consuming, I'm feeling pretty good about the results so far (I've inspected some of the fruit and they look undamaged).  My approach was to first go through all the trees and attach the Maggot Barriers and thin which ensured early protection and then (when completed the first layer) came back and added the second layer.  A little time consuming -- but it will be worth it if I get nice fruit.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether or not the apples will color up through these barriers?  I know from experience the peaches will be just fine without removing the paper sacks.  

Apple varieties are...

Golden Delicious -- should ripen late Sep

Red Gala, Red Fuji and Candy Crisp -- should ripen mid/late Oct

Appreciate all thoughts.

Thanks!

TonyB

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John S
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July 25, 2019 - 8:44 am

My experience is that apples color up through the ziplocs and footies.  Paper bags didn't work for me. They were hard to deal with blew off, the apples didn't color up, and the bugs still got in.

J0hn S
PDX OR

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tonyb
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July 25, 2019 - 9:00 am

Thank you sir.  Based on this, I think I'll remove the paper bags a couple of weeks before expected ripening.

I'll post some pix.

 

Best,

TonyB

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sylviaa
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July 25, 2019 - 11:39 am

Our apples color up just fine through the footies.

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tonyb
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August 13, 2019 - 6:59 am

Some pix of gala apples as of Aug 12th.  These have been double covered (maggot barriers + either paper or cloth bag).  Will take outer barriers off this weekend to allow time for them to color up.  So far, so good.  No insect damage after only one spray at the beginning of the season.  (Which is amazing for where I live.)  I'm convinced bagging was well worth the time and effort.

IMG_0306-1.jpgIMG_0307-1.jpgIMG_0311-1.jpg

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John S
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August 22, 2019 - 10:40 am

I've noticed how thin some of my old footies are.  I think I'm going to follow the advice of GH? and buy the Maggot Barriers for next year. 

John S
PDX OR

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tonyb
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September 12, 2019 - 6:35 am

IMG_0386-2.jpgIMG_0385-1.jpg

My Gala apples are beginning to come in. Sprayed once at the beginning of the season and then double bagged — nylon maggot barriers + paper. Paper bags were removed 2 weeks ago to allow fruit to color up. So far only one fruit had insect damage (I’m in Massachusetts - so amazing to me). Nylons were not treated with Surround.  

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sylviaa
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September 12, 2019 - 2:11 pm

Here's part of the harvest from our Rubinette apple tree. We just have the one tree and we keep it pruned down but it still makes close to 1,000 apples per season. Footies soaked in kaolin clay (Surround), put on when fruit is dime- to nickle-size, twisted on but no fasteners, no bags, no spray. It's hugely labor-intensive but otherwise we get no usable apples at all. This year there are a few infected apples but I'd say 85-90% are beautiful. We also had similarly good results from our Concorde pear treated the same way, even though the tree itself seems to be very ill, alas.AppleHarvest.JPG 

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tonyb
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September 17, 2019 - 5:44 pm

Very nice!

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John S
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September 17, 2019 - 10:50 pm

Great data, Sylviaa and TonyB!
John S
PDX OR

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Don Ricks
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September 22, 2019 - 6:47 am

Has anyone experienced a failure with the paper sacks?   On the tree of one of my clients  9 of the 11  apples bagged by paper sack had the apples never mature (June drop?)  .   In contrast the foot sox seemed to work.  I had never seen this before and don't know what happened.    Were the apples hotter inside of the paper sack and thus more prone to not ripen because of that stress?   Anyone else see this effect?   Usually the paper sacks work great....but not this year on this one tree.

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John S
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October 4, 2019 - 5:22 pm

I wasn't able to make the paper sacks work. It felt clumsy and awkward.  When I closed them up with a stapler, there were side open gaps.  The bugs got in there. I never tried again.
John S
PDX OR

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
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October 5, 2019 - 12:00 pm

John S said
I wasn't able to make the paper sacks work. It felt clumsy and awkward.  When I closed them up with a stapler, there were side open gaps.  The bugs got in there. I never tried again.
John S
PDX OR  

One year I helped install untreated sox  on some and white paper sacks on other apples at a PFTP site we had been working a couple of years. That was the first year of trying any protection methods. The result we saw that year: for sure, the paper protected apples were nicer; less coddling moth and apple maggot fly hits, and colored up well even though we did not return to remove protection prior to harvest. Uncovered apples were far more affected of course.

Trees had decent southern and excellent western exposure. 

The installation method we used was to cut, with scissors, a small 'V' in the bottom edge of the factory-flat-folded bag. (I suppose you could cut across the corner, as well)    Then open the bag to un-crease the bottom, and insert the baby apple through the now diamond shape hole. Fold and staple the open top-now bottom of the bag shut. Move on.

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John S
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October 8, 2019 - 11:52 am

Great idea, James! I just might want to try that! It clearly didn't work for me the other way, just by using a regular paper bag.

John S
PDX OR

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