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Footies (Fruit sox) for codling moth
Tags: footiessurroundapples
July 20, 2017
9:48 am
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miker
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Decided to try the footies with Surround this year as sold by the HOS. We were really hopeful that this would help since we usually lose all of our apples to codling moth (we only have two producing trees with a few others that should bear next year). We're in western Colorado by the way. Here's our opinion of the footies so far:

First of all the Surround never completely goes into solution and no matter how long we poured it back and forth over the footies, quite a bit never attaches. Still, we were able to get a fairly good coating of clay on the footies. 

Most of our apples still have codling moth damage, they simply lay eggs right through the footies despite the kaolin.

Now, a vast majority of our apples are falling off the tree (we used twist ties to attach the footies to the stem when apples were about the diameter of a quarter). 

In short . . . not very happy with the footies -  they seem like a waste of money and time.

Anyone out there have better success with these against codling moth and if so, what do you suggest?

Thinking of trying paper bags (don't like the idea of our apples sitting in ziplock plastic in our intense sun) next year although we're not crazy about having to remove them at the proper time to color the apples. 

July 21, 2017
9:30 am
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jafar
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miker,

 

Welcome to the forum.  I'm sorry to hear about your poor experience with the fruit socks. I have to admit that I'm too lazy to coat the socks with Surround myself, but back when Ted did them I thought they were useful.  They were definitely saturated and shedding Surround.  It probably needs to be pretty thick to be enough of an irritant to dissuade the codling moths from landing on them long enough to make their deposit.

Is it possible that the apples were already stung when you put on the footies?

I've used Ziplock bags in the past, with the lower corners cut off.  I think they kept out the moths, but earwigs seem to love them.  I've seen people make small holes in the bags.

Something like an organza gift bag, if inexpensive enough and UV stable seems like it could work well.  It wouldn't touch most of the surface of the apple while it was small.

July 21, 2017
10:28 am
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davem
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I second Jafar's guess that quarter-sized is too late.  I put my fruit sox on when the apples are a bit smaller than a dime.  Also I just twist the sox and tuck the twist into the sock vs. a twist tie or anything else. 

The sox do take time to install, and it can feel overwhelming to put a sock on every single apple. But as I have told others, you don't have to put a sock on every apple, you only have to put a sock on the apples that you want to eat 🙂

July 26, 2017
7:48 am
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miker
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Thanks for the replies.

I don't think we put the footies on too late based on recommendations for apples in our area and my own calculations using growing degree days for codling moth in our area. Didn't see the oviposition marks until at least three weeks after putting them on and most of them have an expanded hole in the footie above the hole in the apple. My wife thinks they were smaller than a quarter diameter when we put them on. I suspect the problem is, as suggested, that the Surround was not a thick enough layer to ward the moths off. Not sure we can change that since we worked quite a while to get what we could to stick.

I think organza would have the same problem - moths would oviposit through the tiny holes.

I don't mind the time it takes to put a bag on every apple, it wasn't that bad, except that it didn't work and thus feels like a waste of time and money.

I'm going to try paper bags next year and see how that goes.

July 26, 2017
11:16 am
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jafar
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I did some poking around and was told that reports with the nylon footies have been hit and miss.  Some swear by them, others report results similar to yours.   I'm not sure what the key factor is on whether they are effective.  Sounds like you were paying attention and now what to look for with respect to timing.

For the organza, I think the key would be that the bag not touch the fruit flesh.

Please report back on how the paper bagging works for you.

July 28, 2017
5:44 pm
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John S
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Hey miker,

Great topic.  I have used the surround soaked footies many times to great success. Each one of those times, though, Ted Swensen soaked them himself before selling them to me.  I have never soaked them myself, but I could tell that there was quite a bit in each one, as they "blew smoke" when I moved them.  I wonder if a bit of dish soap in the solution, like just a drop, would help them to stick to the footies? Now I'm nervous, because I had planned to buy them and soak them my self next year. Actually I planned to do it this year, but time got away from me.

I have been mostly using ziplocs to good success the last couple of years since HOS booted Ted from the device he created. I always cut off the entire bottom of the ziploc.  I tried to contact him through Prima consulting but had no luck.  I may have to post myself and see what difficulties I have in trying to make it work. 

John S
PDX OR

July 31, 2017
1:11 pm
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Bunchgrasser
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Throwing in my support for Ziplock sandwich bags with corners cut off. I've used them over several seasons with generally good success. The clear bags also let you see coloring as the apples get close to harvest.

August 18, 2017
3:15 pm
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Rooney
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Something added to the mix of clay might be Just-I-fly on the bottom left side of this link. It would be interesting only if it would be natural and if that it has an effect to moths, not just flys. (ie -the one-two punch effect) If any farmer has ever purchased the product could we please have the applicable patent number so we could read all the fine print?

October 12, 2017
6:37 pm
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jim roden
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I've had great success with the footies. This year I reused footies for a second time with no surround and they were almost as good. I think my biggest nemesis is apple maggot - the apples that got no footies were 100% inedible and with footies, 95% good. The few coddling moths that get through are minor and don't sway my plan to use more footies and strip all apples that don't get covered. Jim

March 3, 2018
10:20 pm
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GH
Battle Ground, WA
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Surround-soaked footies have been a godsend in my young orchard, with almost 100% success in the last couple of years. By using these fruit socks (or "maggot barriers", my favorite moniker) and choosing disease resistant apple trees, I've had some nice success in growing good-tasting, pretty, organic apples.  

In my (limited) experience it has been important to buy the thick footies; the other type is too thin, if used each sock should be doubled. I'm getting at least a couple of seasons' use, throwing them away only when they start to shred.

My method is to pour some Surround (kaolin clay) into a large bucket, add water, then stir, making a whitish slurry.  I place the maggot barriers into the bucket, stir again to ensure that all of them get covered, then let them soak for a half hour or longer (there's no time limit here, it won't hurt the socks to soak for much longer).  I then spread the socks on a window screen to dry for a few days, where rain won't reach them.

A helpful hint is to wear gloves when applying the socks, since the kaolin can be an irritant. Regular gloves are too thick for me, so I wear surgical (latex) gloves.  

These footies also seem to keep birds away from the fruit.  Last summer I removed some of the socks in late August to see if the apples would achieve a better color than the ones that remained covered. Almost immediately birds started pecking the uncovered apples!  I quickly re-covered the undamaged apples and decided not to experiment again. 

It is time-consuming to prepare the footies and to place one on each apple, thinning as I go. The reward is being able to bite into a maggot-free apple that I grew myself, it doesn't get much better! 

March 12, 2018
10:50 pm
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John S
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Great post GH.

I agree with Jafar and Dave-quarter is too big. Theyr'e already in even though you might not see them.  I go about dime sized too. Usually May 1 or so.  I am hoping this year to be organized enough to soak them myself, but I still haven;'t done that yet. I've had great success with them.  My hunch is that like GH, if you do it right, it works great.

JohN S
PDX OR

March 14, 2018
9:27 am
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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
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I have some recollection of overhearing Ted Swenson commenting on his surround application evolution. Hazy, but imagination suggests a jump off point. He was using a washing machine to apply the surround, I'd assume an agitator type. Not the family laundry but probably a back-porch located, dedicated, cheap find, not connected to the usual plumbing.  .....or was that a dryer?Confused

May 7, 2018
5:50 pm
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sylviaa
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Hi, HOS folks. I used the Surround-soaked footies from Ted for several years. We never used anything to fasten them, just twisted them around the stem. They worked great. With them, probably 95% of our apples were good. The one year we didn't use them, almost of the all apples were inedible and unusable, too riddled with pests to even try using. For the last couple years we tried buying the footies from Raintree and using them just plain, with no Surround. The first time, year before last, it went OK--the majority of the apples were good. Last year, disaster--almost as bad as no footies at all. 

So what I want to know is, is anybody soaking and drying the footies for sale? If not, where do you buy the Surround? How much Surround do you use per how much water? Do you just soak the footies, or do you do anything else to them (agitate, whatever)? I don't have a top-loading washing machine so can't do that. 

Oh--and where would you get thicker footies? The ones from Raintree are thin.

May 8, 2018
10:48 pm
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jafar
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sylviaa,

The Home Orchard Society sells nylon footies.  You can order them from this site.  They come with a small baggie of Surround for you to prepare at home.  There are instructions.

 

http://www.homeorchardsociety......fruit-sox/

http://www.homeorchardsociety......rotection/

May 25, 2018
2:56 pm
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sylviaa
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Hi, all. Reporting in. On May 7 I ordered 1,008 footies from Raintree (ordered before seeing Jafar's message, next time I'd get them from HOS) and 25 lbs of Surround--that was the smallest amt I could order--from Grow Organic. The Surround arrived a couple days later. The footies didn't arrive until about two days ago--16 days after I ordered them.

We took two yard buckets, those big plastic buckets everybody has, and in each bucket we put about 10 cups of Surround and a few gallons of water. I did not actually measure, but scooped the Surround out with a one-cup measure so I have a rough idea. We stirred the mixture well, dumped half the footies in each bucket, and then stirred some more. We left the buckets sitting there for about 24 hours, stirring whenever it occurred to us to do so. The clay settled into the bottom of the water pretty quickly after each stirring, but we just kept stirring it back up every so often. 

Yesterday we got out some old window screens and laid them on bricks on the shelves in our greenhouse. We stirred the footies again and then glopped them sopping wet onto the screens, spreading them out some for better drying. They are now drying in the greenhouse.

On Sunday, during thinning, the footies will be applied to our roughly dime-sized apples.

We have Rubinette apples and they tend to be later than most varieties so we're lucky that way--lots of other varieties would be too big by now.

To be continued...

May 27, 2018
1:37 pm
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John S
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Thanks Sylviaa,

The practicality of making it happen is really key for these.

John S
PDX OR

June 14, 2018
9:48 pm
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Don Ricks
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I have tried a variety of devices in a variety of different areas in Seattle and this seems to be my observation:

    1.  If you are in an area where there is a high codling moth pressure then you need paper sacks or plastic bags.

     2.   If you have moderate codling moth pressure then you need the super-strong foot sox soaked in kaolin clay.

      3.   If you have low codling moth pressure then even weak foot sox will work.

 

    And the foot sox will always work for apple maggots.

June 14, 2018
10:31 pm
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John S
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Until I observe or hear otherwise, that is going to be how I think about it. Thanks for formulating it into a coherent view.
John S
PDX OR

September 3, 2018
12:43 pm
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penorman
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I bought nylon footies and Surround from HOS earlier this year and followed the directions carefully, applying them to about 150 apples.  They had absolutely no effect.  Treated apples were just as likely to be damaged as untreated ones.  There were typically small holes through the footy right at the point of entry.IMG_4588.JPG

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September 10, 2018
8:39 pm
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John S
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I am wary whenever I see one tightly wrapped around an apple like that. I feel like it makes the gaps so wide that it's easy for bugs to get in there.  I try to make sure they're evenly and thickly wrapped around them.  Also, I'm not sure how I'll do on getting the surround really soaked into the footie.

John S
PDX OR

September 10, 2018
10:13 pm
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Don Ricks
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I have no doubt Penorman had the bad experience he reported.   My suspicion is that he just happens to be in a high codling moth population area.   So,  he either needs some sort of spray for the entire tree  or if he is to go individually on the apples he needs ziploc bags with slits to let the water out.....or #2 bleached white paper sacks.  If new apple trees ever get planted I might suggest  Spartan or Liberty as they seem to be naturally resistant to bugs.....(they get bugs but just not as badly as other varieties.)   One final note:   I can practically guarantee that the only damage Penorman had was from codling moth and not from apple maggot fly.....so if he cuts the bad section out,  he still has a better apple than if he had used no foot sox at all.   

September 11, 2018
8:01 pm
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penorman
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In response to John S, I don't mean to be argumentative since I just wanted to report my particular experience.  But at the risk of stating the obvious, the footies were not tightly wrapped around the apple when I applied them since the apples were then the size of a quarter, per the directions.  The apples grew into the initially-loose footies, stretching them.  

September 12, 2018
4:17 pm
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John S
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We're just sharing our experiences. No arguments. I didn't mean tightly wrapped when the footies were placed on the apples.  My experience that I was referring to  was when the apple grew to where the footie became tightly wrapped and the bug found easier access.  I want people to see your experiences and they can try to figure it out for themselves. 

I value people's perspectives because that is how I can learn in the future.

John S
PDX OR

October 18, 2018
12:37 pm
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tonyb
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Very interesting thread.  I'm in MA and used ziplock bags this year and was generally disappointed with the experience -- too much water in the bags (even with the corners clipped) and earwigs in the bags.

I've purchased the nylon Maggot Barriers and am considering coating them with Surround - but it looks like there is no consensus on the effectiveness of this.  

I also have purchased some of the Japanese apple bags - but wonder if earwigs would be a problem with these as well (since they have vents).

Interested in folks thoughts about each of these approaches...

  • spray fruitlets with Surround then add Maggot Barriers
  • spray fruitlets with Surround then bag
  • spray fruitlets with Surround, add Maggot Barriers, then bag

Interested in opinions...

Thx

Tony B

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