I second Jafar's guess that quarter-sized is too late.  I put my fruit sox on when the apples are a bit smaller than a dime.  Also I just twist the sox and tuck the twist into the sock vs. a twist tie or anything else. 

The sox do take time to install, and it can feel overwhelming to put a sock on every single apple. But as I have told others, you don't have to put a sock on every apple, you only have to put a sock on the apples that you want to eat 🙂

Throwing in my support for Ziplock sandwich bags with corners cut off. I've used them over several seasons with generally good success. The clear bags also let you see coloring as the apples get close to harvest.

I've had great success with the footies. This year I reused footies for a second time with no surround and they were almost as good. I think my biggest nemesis is apple maggot - the apples that got no footies were 100% inedible and with footies, 95% good. The few coddling moths that get through are minor and don't sway my plan to use more footies and strip all apples that don't get covered. Jim

Hi, HOS folks. I used the Surround-soaked footies from Ted for several years. We never used anything to fasten them, just twisted them around the stem. They worked great. With them, probably 95% of our apples were good. The one year we didn't use them, almost of the all apples were inedible and unusable, too riddled with pests to even try using. For the last couple years we tried buying the footies from Raintree and using them just plain, with no Surround. The first time, year before last, it went OK--the majority of the apples were good. Last year, disaster--almost as bad as no footies at all. 

So what I want to know is, is anybody soaking and drying the footies for sale? If not, where do you buy the Surround? How much Surround do you use per how much water? Do you just soak the footies, or do you do anything else to them (agitate, whatever)? I don't have a top-loading washing machine so can't do that. 

Oh--and where would you get thicker footies? The ones from Raintree are thin.

Hi, all. Reporting in. On May 7 I ordered 1,008 footies from Raintree (ordered before seeing Jafar's message, next time I'd get them from HOS) and 25 lbs of Surround--that was the smallest amt I could order--from Grow Organic. The Surround arrived a couple days later. The footies didn't arrive until about two days ago--16 days after I ordered them.

We took two yard buckets, those big plastic buckets everybody has, and in each bucket we put about 10 cups of Surround and a few gallons of water. I did not actually measure, but scooped the Surround out with a one-cup measure so I have a rough idea. We stirred the mixture well, dumped half the footies in each bucket, and then stirred some more. We left the buckets sitting there for about 24 hours, stirring whenever it occurred to us to do so. The clay settled into the bottom of the water pretty quickly after each stirring, but we just kept stirring it back up every so often. 

Yesterday we got out some old window screens and laid them on bricks on the shelves in our greenhouse. We stirred the footies again and then glopped them sopping wet onto the screens, spreading them out some for better drying. They are now drying in the greenhouse.

On Sunday, during thinning, the footies will be applied to our roughly dime-sized apples.

We have Rubinette apples and they tend to be later than most varieties so we're lucky that way--lots of other varieties would be too big by now.

To be continued...

I have tried a variety of devices in a variety of different areas in Seattle and this seems to be my observation:

    1.  If you are in an area where there is a high codling moth pressure then you need paper sacks or plastic bags.

     2.   If you have moderate codling moth pressure then you need the super-strong foot sox soaked in kaolin clay.

      3.   If you have low codling moth pressure then even weak foot sox will work.

 

    And the foot sox will always work for apple maggots.

I bought nylon footies and Surround from HOS earlier this year and followed the directions carefully, applying them to about 150 apples.  They had absolutely no effect.  Treated apples were just as likely to be damaged as untreated ones.  There were typically small holes through the footy right at the point of entry.

I have no doubt Penorman had the bad experience he reported.   My suspicion is that he just happens to be in a high codling moth population area.   So,  he either needs some sort of spray for the entire tree  or if he is to go individually on the apples he needs ziploc bags with slits to let the water out.....or #2 bleached white paper sacks.  If new apple trees ever get planted I might suggest  Spartan or Liberty as they seem to be naturally resistant to bugs.....(they get bugs but just not as badly as other varieties.)   One final note:   I can practically guarantee that the only damage Penorman had was from codling moth and not from apple maggot fly.....so if he cuts the bad section out,  he still has a better apple than if he had used no foot sox at all.   

TonyB   I am pretty sure (without my checking)  that you get more summer rain than we do in the Pacific Northwest.   We get our rain in the Winter,  not the summer.   And so your bugs and your results may be different.   

  But I do have some thoughts:

--   I have not found earwigs to be a big problem.  Usually (to my observation)  they do not go after the fruit.   But pretty much any enclosure you use (except for foot sox)   will attract earwigs,  including the Japanese fuji bags.  So,  for me,  I just live with them.

 --I would recommend you experiment with different approaches but to me the simplest would be the #2 White bleached paper sacks or the Fuji bags and I would favor those over the foot sox.....unless you know you don't have much of a codling moth problem,  in which case the foot sox would be easier.

--   An organization called "City Fruit"  here in Seattle is using protective bee netting over the entire tree.   For smaller trees this is an option.  Wilson Orchard and Vineyard Supply in Oregon.   These nets may last 3 to 5 years.

Hi, all. I'm reporting back after harvest. (We have Rubinettes, which run late, is why so late.) As I reported earlier, I used footies from Raintree (next time I'll use HOS) soaked in Surround from GrowOrganics.com. I explained the process I used in a couple earlier comments. We footied the fruit when most of them were dime-sized, though some were bigger and some came later and didn't get done. We had almost complete success. We had a large crop, though nowhere near as large as last year's. They do just vary from year to year. AND... ALMOST ALL of them were beautiful, whole, clean apples. We will use the same procedure next year. It is labor-intensive but it is worth it. The difference between having a usable apple crop and having essentially no crop. Huge thanks to all of you for your help, reports, and recommendations. 

One of the things I love about this method of fruit protection is the expressions on the neighbor's faces. But since they didn't ask, I didn't say, why I was covering my apples with shoe-store footies.

Don Ricks said
   If I knew how to send a foto I could post an apple here with my name on it.  

I'm running on a mac, don't know if that's far different than others but what I have done: drag my photo to the desktop, open it from there. I have an option to 'markup' and then 'adjust size' (usually my pics were rejected for being oversize) I drop off the last digit of hight and width pixels and that seems to make the size acceptable; close the marked up picture. Click the 'upload attachments' button from this site and drag the marked up small pic/thumbnail from the desktop to the 'drag files here area'; click the upload button.....          Or, after sizing the pic and clicking the upload attachments button, click the 'add files' button and select your thumbnail from the dropdown. Start the upload.

Hope this helps .

I'd love to see your stenciled results.

When I first tried nylon maggot barriers on my apples, it was with the thin footies and no Surround; the experiment was a depressing failure. The next year I doubled up on the socks and soaked them in Surround, that experiment worked beautifully. Now I make sure to buy the heavy-duty maggot barriers, so there's no need to double up, and I always soak them.

The only problem this year was with a few of my late-season Braeburn apples. I had failed to wrap some of the maggot barriers properly around the apples and didn't do an inspection later in the summer, so birds were able to eat the tops of these apples. It sure keeps life interesting.

Surround without the footies may be adequate in areas with little or no summer rain, such as the Pacific Northwest. Even with no rain to wash it off, regular Surround spraying would be required so that apples continue to be covered as they grow. It seems to me that the Surround/maggot barrier work upfront would amount to less hassle than spraying Surround multiple times a season.  Since Surround is by no means a cheap product, it seems likely that the cost would be much higher also; added to this cost would be the extra amount of Surround lost due to overspray, which could be significant.   

I feel that customers such as Agolds6 might be looking at misleading pictures on this thread as per post #19. Nobody has yet to submit pictured evidence of the apple before being picked, and as I know from my own experience (not using sox) the entry points on the sides of apples (in mine it's asian pears) had leaves or twigs against the side of the fruit in the first place. These are last generation infections where the leaves and other hiding places are in abundance. So we would be not so miss led if pictures are submitted prior to picking them. 

Because here is what happens as it always does in the first generation is that the egg gets laid near or upon the tiny fruit. Once hatched the larva seeks the best hiding spot in the center-point of the old flower for a days or so resting place. Then when it gets going there then it must be admitted there is not much to do if you have a loose sox, but that fruit will have had it's seeds eaten and will become part of the trees wave of recycling (ie "june drop").

The last generation and the time when the sox are a problem for codling moth lavae to take the rest on the fruits is what counts. Then as per the same thing as before the last generation little guy needs to hide out near or not far from the apple for a while. At the time of the year the fruits are so large and the leaves have fully grown there are far more actively sought out hiding places then just the old flowering point of entry anymore. 

In other words we are only misleading ourselves by listening to misleading photographs. I have NEVER picked any my mature asian pears with a codling moth hole in the side without a leaf or twig hiding place touching that point, have you? 

Let us be more observing and outsmart them. 🙂

In the mean time if you want to really try at the level of 100% then make sure you inspect all around the sox at the times the female moths are actively laying (last generations) and before such a time they hatch.

Really good suggestion James when you direct to those good reads cause they are good!

Further evidence leaning towards my own bias of habits for MY codling moth events is by comparing the 2 class types of asian pears I have. One class has a permanent hiding place in the flower end like that of a real pear while the other class is a flat one after the flower falls off. Which  for the same reason I call the ones that are of the hiding place class type "codling magnets".

According to schedule I defruit all the magnetic fruits that I grafted in my regular asian pears about July 7 and remove them off site in case they over winter here.

So far it's been working pretty much the way it's supposed to.
*So; if anybody wants MY kinds of codling moths for free let me know in advance so I don't throw mine out (*laughing on that one ).

Thanks for saying that distance could have factored in which did answer my #35 question. But can you give us an idea where you and your experiments with sox went on? My post #37 is telling of my location under the owl, but I forgot to say I have been doing my experiments for years now ..so hopefully you to not feel like I seemed to pick on any of your posts. Lots of people don't understand the many aspects of location, rain, and even the codling moth model differences of habits that vary from differing parts of the continent.

At my place I chose to try and prove the effectiveness of specific chosen pear cultivars to become sacrificial. I chose the first 1964 discovery of pear esters as an attractant for codling moths. And articles since 1964 having had proved these attract both the males and females, that also some apples have variances in ability to attract codling as a reverse escape strategy. Why pears in our PNW are not more prone than apples (per personal conversations) are more puzzling than ever since my codlings do, but this is the scientific source of variances in all things:

Its biological significance is, however, not entirely clear, since it is found mainly in pear and only in some apple cultivars (Jennings et al., 1964; Berger and Drawert, 1984; Willner et al., 2013)."

I should have said--we try to get all the fruit covered when it's dime- to nickle-sized. Sometimes they get away from us a little and are larger. If we wait until quarter-sized they're much more likely to be invaded. Also, should have said, we can't reach the fruit at the top of some trees, even with the orchard ladder. So it doesn't get protected and we lose that fruit.

I've had good luck with this company, having ordered from them for several years.  Last year I underestimated the number of footies that were needed (more apples than expected, a very good thing!), placed an order on Sunday evening, and received them on Wednesday afternoon. Less than a 3-day turnaround was good customer service, in my opinion.

The heavy-duty footies are $12.95 for 144, with free shipping.

http://www.maggotbarriers.com

I'm out in MA and it has been a very wet season!  We have significant pest pressure -- CM, PC and OFM.  As I mentioned in my previous post, last season I had tried the ziplocks and was a bit disappointed.

This year I doubled up on the layers.

For the apples, I first put on untreated Maggot Barriers.  For the second layer, I either used #2 white paper bags, small cloth sacks with draw strings, or Fuji Apple bags.  So far, I've had very few pulled off in the high wind or rain we've had this season.

For the peaches and nectarines, I covered with Maggot Barriers and then paper Clemson fruit bags.  About 10% of the peaches/nectarines have detached so far.  I'm assuming this is just normal fruit drop.

While more time consuming, I'm feeling pretty good about the results so far (I've inspected some of the fruit and they look undamaged).  My approach was to first go through all the trees and attach the Maggot Barriers and thin which ensured early protection and then (when completed the first layer) came back and added the second layer.  A little time consuming -- but it will be worth it if I get nice fruit.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether or not the apples will color up through these barriers?  I know from experience the peaches will be just fine without removing the paper sacks.  

Apple varieties are...

Golden Delicious -- should ripen late Sep

Red Gala, Red Fuji and Candy Crisp -- should ripen mid/late Oct

Appreciate all thoughts.

Thanks!

TonyB

Thank you sir.  Based on this, I think I'll remove the paper bags a couple of weeks before expected ripening.

I'll post some pix.

 

Best,

TonyB

Some pix of gala apples as of Aug 12th.  These have been double covered (maggot barriers + either paper or cloth bag).  Will take outer barriers off this weekend to allow time for them to color up.  So far, so good.  No insect damage after only one spray at the beginning of the season.  (Which is amazing for where I live.)  I'm convinced bagging was well worth the time and effort.

My Gala apples are beginning to come in. Sprayed once at the beginning of the season and then double bagged — nylon maggot barriers + paper. Paper bags were removed 2 weeks ago to allow fruit to color up. So far only one fruit had insect damage (I’m in Massachusetts - so amazing to me). Nylons were not treated with Surround.  

Very nice!

Has anyone experienced a failure with the paper sacks?   On the tree of one of my clients  9 of the 11  apples bagged by paper sack had the apples never mature (June drop?)  .   In contrast the foot sox seemed to work.  I had never seen this before and don't know what happened.    Were the apples hotter inside of the paper sack and thus more prone to not ripen because of that stress?   Anyone else see this effect?   Usually the paper sacks work great....but not this year on this one tree.

John S said
I wasn't able to make the paper sacks work. It felt clumsy and awkward.  When I closed them up with a stapler, there were side open gaps.  The bugs got in there. I never tried again.
John S
PDX OR  

One year I helped install untreated sox  on some and white paper sacks on other apples at a PFTP site we had been working a couple of years. That was the first year of trying any protection methods. The result we saw that year: for sure, the paper protected apples were nicer; less coddling moth and apple maggot fly hits, and colored up well even though we did not return to remove protection prior to harvest. Uncovered apples were far more affected of course.

Trees had decent southern and excellent western exposure. 

The installation method we used was to cut, with scissors, a small 'V' in the bottom edge of the factory-flat-folded bag. (I suppose you could cut across the corner, as well)    Then open the bag to un-crease the bottom, and insert the baby apple through the now diamond shape hole. Fold and staple the open top-now bottom of the bag shut. Move on.