I made a similar post on Gardenweb. I've just planted a Howard's Miracle Japanese plum against my chimney on the South side of my house.
I was originally thinking of training it to a fan shape as that is what's recommended in the Training and Pruning book I have.
Is there a reason I can't instead prune it to a quadruple cordon as I've tried to sketch above? I just think that would be more aesthetically pleasing and straightforward with this arrangement.
Is the reason that a fan is recommended because of the growth habit? Or perhaps because plum isn't as flexible as apple and pear and might break if grown at 45 degrees before being bent down to horizontal?
I was thinking that I'd like to decapitate the tree at the horizontal orange line and then bark graft another variety there with 3 or more buds to train as the next tier. I would then eventually add two more varieties for one per tier.
Am I nuts? Any variety recommendations for Portland? I chose Howard's Miracle because I really liked the fruit from the Home Orchard Society arboretum last fall. It kind of tasted like peach to me and I'm afraid to grow actual peaches.
I was also thinking of Ozark Premier because Viron called it peachy. Unfortunately it also seems to have a reputation for shy bearing in these parts. I generally prefer peaches and European plums to supermarket Japanese plums. I don't want anything with really tart skin or seed.
The trellis is comes about 3" out from the wall, the squares are about 9 1/2 inches on center and the trunk of the tree is maybe 9 inches from the chimney.
i know the cordons are tempting, but...
A) trying to force an asian plum (whose habit YEARNS to be arching and vase shaped) into right angled positions just sounds like no fun to me, and maybe hard on the tree too.
B) since asian plums bear their fruit on 2-4 year old wood, they seem better suited to the more informal fan training: it's easier to constantly prune older unproductive wood out of a fan shape and have new shoots replacing them than with an old established cordon shape - when those big arms lose productivity the tree is going to look like hell when they get cut out for renewal.
i think the fan shape is your best bet, but that's just my two cents...
What a pretty specimen! Have you grown Japanese plumbs..? They’re extremely prolific – I must remove half the volume of an entire tree with yearly pruning. What it will tend to do is ‘overgrow’ the proposed branches with aggressive shoots; shading and somewhat stunting your lateral branches. The horizontal lateral’s will not draw enough sap to compete with the vigorous shoots sprouting from everywhere. Tip-pinching may adjust some of that behavior, but I’d be afraid of sapping the tree too much in the process.
“Is the reason that a fan is recommended because of the growth habit? Or perhaps because plum isn't as flexible as apple and pear and might break if grown at 45 degrees before being bent down to horizontal?†-- My guess is exactly that with the ‘fan shape.’ It would allow for the wild upright growth, perhaps allowing you to ‘replace’ the ‘fan branches’ from time to time, training a shoot from the crown area. And yes, they are more brittle than apple or pear… Fast growing with near hollow ‘peffy’ interiors on one year growth.
"Am I nuts?" -- We’re all nuts around here! Nuts about Fruit! I love it!!
If I wasn’t a slave to my place as is … I’d delve into my book on Bonsai. Every year I’m having more fun tweaking my Japanese Lace-leaf maple. I envision a little party around it, attendees with their sets of miniature stainless steel pruning implements; sipping sake while discussing the next cut. …I’m now envisioning you doing the same with your “quadruple cordon†Japanese plum - throughout the summer. I’d hate to dissuade you from your ultimate desire, it’s a grand plan!
As far as varieties, I’m impressed you remembered my experience with Ozark Premier’s… But my Uncle on Sauvies Island had great sets on his … the same tree my original wood was taken from. A Pollinator’s my problem; and since he’s no longer on the farm – I don’t know what was doing it for him? I’ve planted (and grafted & planted a second) “Burbank Red Ace†plum specifically to pollinate the Ozark – no go. Thus, my (main) Ozark’s been removed and I’m now looking for a pollinator for the Red Ace!
The only way you’ll avoid the ‘sour-skin’ Japanese plums is going with as late a variety as you can find. My plan was to have an evolving harvest, from Satsuma to Premier’s … with all kinds in-between. Problem was pollination; they nearly bloom as diverse as they ripen! Early’s first – later’s much later. In fact, I’d better do my homework as to find a compatible late bloomer (ripener) to grab at the Exchange (Fair)!
This is my first Japanese plum. I was inspired to add it by the taste I had at the arboretum as well as some mention I'd seen that despite the expectation for Europeans to do better here, some folks have had better luck with Asians.
I do have a multi-multi grafted Europlum in the middle of my front lawn. So far its yielded 2 fruits of Reine Claude de Bavay that had me drooling for more and 3 of Early Laxton that were good enough to get me excited for the future and to try the other varieties.
The original tree came with Early Laxton, Seneca and Italian Prune but the other two haven't matured fruit yet. I've since grafted several gages and prunes onto the vigorous and dominant Early Laxton portion of the tree.
Hey Viron, I love your passion for fruit trees. I'm curious, what is it about this specimen that you find attractive? Your answer could influence how I treat it.
I think you meant "vigorous" when you said "prolific". I believe the term vigorous relates to the vegetative growth and prolific relates to the fruiting.
In any case, this tree is my first attempt at espalier or substantial size/space control outside of genetics and rootstock choice.
Arboretum, your advice is well taken and I think you've persuaded me to forgo the rigid geometry that the lattice shaped trellis seems to be screaming out for to me. One of my concerns is that I want to take full advantage of the limited space in front of the wall. That means that the mature form will be taller than it is wide. I'd also like to work in another variety or two if feasible without making it unsightly.
Most of the guidance I've seen for training to a fan shape suggests to decapitate the tree even lower than I have drawn in and only retain the bottom two branches at about the angle they are or pulled down just a bit more. Others suggest to keep whatever limbs I can and work from there.
Looking at the tree's natural shape I see a very obvious pyramid (excepting a bit of vigorous growth near the top).
So far I've gotton zero response from Gardenweb. I'm grateful for the responses here. Keep them coming!
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/loa ... 972.html?7
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/loa ... 202.html?1
Viron, regarding the pollination, I can't find it right now, but I recall recently reading somewhere from a Portland resident that apparently the purple-leafed flowering plums do contribute pollen for some varieties and may be partly responsible for anecdotes of "self-fertile" varieties that are in fact getting pollen from those street trees. The reason I bring that up is because my neighborhood is jam packed with those purple-leafed fruitless plums. I also have a neighbor accross the street with a huge Shiro in his backyard. Who knows what the other neighbors have.
I'd never heard of a correlation between late-ripening and skin tartness. Care to elaborate, or point me someplace where I can read more about it? I know that there is a link between lateness of apples and storability. Is this a similar thing?
I apologize for the shade. It was bad timing.
OK, I've more or less settled on 3 levels with arms at about 40 degrees after talking with Ted at the scion exchange. It won't be quite as open and informal as a traditonal fan, so it might look worse if I have to prune out a whole limb. But Ted assured me that with plum vigor it should replace it a season.
I've pruned out all of the branches growing towards the wall or out from it.
You can see where I've tied in dowels to train the first 2 levels. I'm thinking of whip grafting either Beauty or AU Producer to the small branches on the 2nd tier. I'd then bark graft the other variety to the leader which I'd decapitate in the middle of the 2nd full square from the top.
I plan on pruning out the 2 vigorous limbs between there and the 2nd tier.
How does this sound? What should I do with all of the limbs emanating from the main trunk between my first 2 tiers? Is there a way to get these to become fruiting spurs along the trunk? Or should I completely thin them out?
Please feel free to comment on any aspect of the plan. While it is very welcome, I don't necessarily expect a comprehensive answer in every post.
Jafarj,
“Hey Viron, I love your passion for fruit trees. I'm curious, what is it about this specimen that you find attractive? Your answer could influence how I treat it.†-- Sorry J, I hadn’t forgot your complement or post … it just hit me about the same time as a head-cold and I must admit losing some enthusiasm – especially since I’d likely miss our propagation fair… I ‘loved’ those top, 4 largest branches, and the beautiful symmetrical whirl of associated limbs. It looks a near perfect specimen!
“I think you meant "vigorous" when you said "prolific". I believe the term vigorous relates to the vegetative growth and prolific relates to the fruiting.†– Yes, I did, and sit corrected. I’ve got to be careful when talking to those who understand the difference!
“I'd never heard of a correlation between late-ripening and skin tartness. Care to elaborate, or point me someplace where I can read more about it?" – That’s definitely been my experience. I don’t know that I’ve read about it either, but a welcome discovery with Asian plums as the season progresses are the later ripening varieties, or cultivars, acquire a ‘richer’ more systemic sweetness that carry’s over to their skin.
Researching a pollinator for my “Burbank Red Ace,†I came to find out many, if not most of the best late season Asian plums are related! No wonder they have pollination difficulties! But having ‘saved’ a file on my research, at the onset of said cold – I can’t remember what I named it...
Looking at my written notes: “Methley†is shown as a pollinator for “Burbank (Red Ace)†– but “Ozark Premier†is a cross between Burbank & Methley. So the Methley wouldn’t pollinate my Ozark’s -- and no wonder my Burbank never cross-pollinated my Ozark Premier’s!†“Wickson was suggested as a late (Asian) plum pollinator; but it’s a cross between “Burbank & Kelseyâ€â€¦
I came up with something called “October Purple,†but would not have expected it to be at the scion exchange… I’ve got “Early Golden†written down as pollinating both Ozark Premier and Burbank, but usually, ‘early’ plums bloom early … and both Ozark P. and Burbank (Red Ace) are very late bloomers… Still with me? …I was actually ready to grab a Santa Rosa… though I don’t care for the fruit at all (rare for me), I’d happily graft a limb on strictly for pollination, as it’s supposed to work for them...
Regarding your last post and photo: “How does this sound? What should I do with all of the limbs emanating from the main trunk between my first 2 tiers? Is there a way to get these to become fruiting spurs along the trunk? Or should I completely thin them out?†– Looks good to me. I envision some very vigorous ‘side shoots’ sprouting from those main limbs. It would be very interesting to see what would develop if you pinched them back, limiting their growth this summer? As far as the small limbs from the trunk, don’t worry about them; yes, they’ll likely flower and fruit! But they’ll never match the massive growth emanating from the larger ones higher up. I’d leave it as is, just keep us posted 
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