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are Cherry Plums more cherry than Pluerries are?
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Fruitfly
Central Oregon Coast
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April 21, 2019 - 7:49 pm

Has anyone tried either Cherry Plum or Pluerry? It would be nice to have a cherry that's bigger, mostly cherry and a little bit of plum flavor.

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Rooney
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April 22, 2019 - 5:04 pm

I have tried sprite and delight cherry plums which are many times listed as part cherry. Mostly they are listed as 2 plum species crosses between p cerasifera x p salicina. So if that is what you are referring to then they are all plum and per plums bloom very early and when they do set fruit they are not very large but the taste is good. 

The pluerry is a trade name of the real hybridization which occurs from California between prunus salicina (plum) and prunus avium (sweet cherry). I have not had any but from what I heard they might be worth buying. The biggest problem is the overbreeding in California lends to poor survival for us here in PNW.

I have a cross between real cherry-plum from Australia "nadia". It does not fall into the trade name pluerry. It is not fancy breeding by the exporter from Australia. Therefore it is a first generation cross that simply tastes like a plum and for some reason still flowers early like a plum. Mine is hard to grow here but I can manage it next to my peach under plastic.

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jafar
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April 24, 2019 - 3:32 pm

Have you had any fruit from your Nadia. Mine has bloomed for a few years but has yet to set a single fruit.

It's out in the open.  

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Rooney
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April 24, 2019 - 9:23 pm

Mine is still too early to tell if any of the developing fruitlets will fruit. Somehow mine has always managed at least one plum in the last 3 seasons. It blooms the earliest and of course bees are not out doing pollinating. So this year I marked the flowers that I had pollinated myself from my 'Owen T'. Mysteriously they aborted and some later stages of flowers (possibly from bees) look promising so far. Possibly apomixis at play since nadia does not produce pollen.

I am suprised yours still lives out on the open. Everywhere my peach or nadia branches stick outside of the covered area those branches die-back.

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jafar
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April 25, 2019 - 12:17 pm

It actually seems pretty healthy relative to my other stonefruit.

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Rooney
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April 25, 2019 - 2:58 pm

So good to hear that. Then my tree health is worse due to accumulation of stresses having been rootbound in no more than 5 gallons of soil the last couple years -why it makes so much sense then. 

You might want to do as I have to increase fruit set on trees that tend towards infertile when exposed. Long before Lon R passed away I used to (at his place) look for fruit on hybrids rows of mature prunus hybrids that should have long since bore fruit but had not. Now and then in good winters like the one past a few bore very shy of a crop the one year but none of anything very valuable as one might expect having been derived halfway from apricot (the rest plum).

Then at which point the project turned into a non breeding aspect and a matter of PNW conditions of fertility. ...and if your memory serves you well you know by now that I grafted those few shy bearers onto my big 'Emerald Beaut' plum, still before Lon passed.

Long story short: I never had fruit produced the natural way, not even when I grafted a good myrobalan plum there as pollination patrner. However un-naturally I had been able to get fruit when a branch would keep positioned under the overhang from my roof (also hand pollinated). Same with this year and same tree when I recently had dipped a couple branches into aquarium antibiotic treatments over the whole night then pollinated. -resulting in a balanced crop load. 

That's alot of dedication spanning a long time and by next year I hope to further that by trying make do to the same upon the old original trees that have never yet bore or (for that matter) been evaluated for quality.

You should be able to accomplish it with the same however I can't really say that if you continue using the treatments it would continue to work. They react against pseudomonas syringae bacteria that over time can develop a resistance. I rarely use it when it is important for me as above, and subsequently for an important cross.

I don't really have much time to list all the important ways to resource the disease the way they have in plant botany over the years. It's much easier when it's submitted to the researchers that are more widely familiar, which I do.

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
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April 27, 2019 - 7:13 pm

I have Nadia.  I think it is 4 years old.  Vigorous grower.  Deer love the flavor, sort of plum leaf and sort of cherry leaf.  Gives them something different to try.  🙂

Last year it bloomed but did not set fruit.  It is an early bloomer.  This year while it was blooming, I cut branches from other plum trees in bloom, and placed them among Nadia's branches.  Hollywood and Crimson Spire were the pollinators.  It set fruits this time.  There was a freeze that did the job of thinning for me so it will not overbear.  I don't know how many fruits it has, I saw at least a half dozen and didn't look at every branch.  I hope they don't fall off.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, among the cobwebs, I recall that they used to call a type of small dark plum "cherry plums".  They were not cherry at all.  Gardening is confusing.

I had a "Sweet Treat" pluerry that bore nicely for a couple years, then died suddenly last sunmer.  Sweet Treat is a complex hybrid mostly plum, then cherry, then some apricot and peach if I remember right.  Mine got pleach leaf curl but not bad.  I dont know what killed it.  Also a very early bloomer.  

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jafar
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May 3, 2019 - 5:48 pm

After my post, I see that there are some larger than Tic-Tac fruitlets on the tree.  somewhere between 5 and 40 probably.  I think I had that a couple years ago but they later fell off.  We'll see.  

I just want to taste it.  I'm not expecting to be overwhelmed.

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
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May 4, 2019 - 10:13 am

jafar said
I just want to taste it.  I'm not expecting to be overwhelmed.  

Me too.  I liked Sweet Treat but never got a lot off of it.  Plus the early bloom can mean a lot of fruit loss.

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Ronald Lewis
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May 4, 2019 - 5:41 pm

Fruitfly said
Has anyone tried either Cherry Plum or Pluerry? It would be nice to have a cherry that's bigger, mostly cherry and a little bit of plum flavor.  

I have grown cherry-plums in northern Ontario, for several decades. They originated in the prairie provinces of Canada as crosses between the hardy western sandcherry, which is really a plum, and tender Japanese plums. The results we have today are hardy bushes, whose fruits are very flavourful plums, of diameter 3 cm or smaller. They have somehow lost popularity in recent years and so it is now hard to find a nursery that carries them.

Synonyms for cherry-plum are 'plum-cherry' and 'chum'.

Link: https://www.newsoptimist.ca/op.....-1.7136075Heavy-Crop-Opata-Cherry-Plum-2011-08-14.jpg

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Rooney
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May 4, 2019 - 6:43 pm

Nice to see somebody post from those parts once in a while! I was borne in western Canada and know pretty much what are the cherry-plums that opata is. Which is almost the same as prunus cistena (purple leafed myroplum x western sandplum) and 'm-800', another hybrid that originated of the same sandplum per an apricot cross. My 'm-800' had been trialed on my multigrafted tree next with other of Lon's hybrid apricots and the rain has been very hard on it and after 4 years it is almost dead.

So if anybody local here wishing to try any "those kind" of Canadian sandplum, or a partly of it, it can work but only if you had a greenhouse.

Prinus tenella is very similar a kind of tree form as sandplums. They are interesting to think about as bush plants for sure. Mine was grafted to marianna 2624 and outdoors also had the same longevity as my m-800. I get lots of these subjects on my trips back from Alaska. Anything borne around there fail here most of the time.

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Rooney
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November 7, 2019 - 12:10 pm

jafar said
Have you had any fruit from your Nadia. Mine has bloomed for a few years but has yet to set a single fruit.

It's out in the open.    

My original containerized Nadia bore poorly this year (as usual) even though it is shelered, but the Nadia that I had grafted of 2 years and already flowered on the marianna-2624 rootstock matured and made a big difference. Very large crop of plum like fruit with a heart cherry shape to them. No shelter no disease.

Another evidence that most *f1 hybrids show greater potential as quicker responders (known as SAR) to the effects and threats of disease and in this case mainly an arial attack prunus disease of bacterial gummosis, and not the fireblight so more common to pome fruits.

*1960s work involved cherry studies around Oregon, England and others (ie hybrid 'colt')

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
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November 7, 2019 - 8:28 pm

Rooney said

jafar said
Have you had any fruit from your Nadia. Mine has bloomed for a few years but has yet to set a single fruit.

It's out in the open.    

My original containerized Nadia bore poorly this year (as usual) even though it is shelered, but the Nadia that I had grafted of 2 years and already flowered on the marianna-2624 rootstock matured and made a big difference. Very large crop of plum like fruit with a heart cherry shape to them. No shelter no disease

My Nadia also bore a couple dozen fruits this year, the first crop ever.  They had a nice flavor, richly plummy.  Small.   Maybe a hint of cherry, at least something a little different but not the complexity of the ill-fated "Sweet Treat" Pluerry.  This tree is close to a multigraft plum and I also placed blooming branches from Hollywood plum and an ornamental fastigiate red leafed plum, among its branches.  So who knows?  Nadia is very vigorous, vertical like a sweet cherry, and the branches are brittle.

I'm gradually grafting potential pollinizers to every plum.  The bloom early  for honeybees and it's often chilly and rainy when they are blooming.  For the earliest bloomers, that means Methley, Hollywood, or that red leaf plum I forget the name.  It has small tasty burgundy fruits, seed fairly large but nice spicy flavor,  There are tiny native bees that fly among the early flowers much more than honey bees, but don't seem to fly from tree to tree.  So I'm making it easier for them.

I almost never hear about Hollywood or Methley.  I like both, really good flavor.  Larger fruits and probably better adapted and more reliable than designer hybrids from Southern California.

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Rooney
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November 7, 2019 - 8:52 pm

Methley is an F1 hybrid too like Nadia is by the way. P1 and P2 for methley is 2 other plum species salicina and cerasifera. I have seen it lots in breeding charts used by ARS breeders in California. I tried to ask those breeders for F1 apricots between hunza species and the domestic types. They had lots for trial here but I gave up on the idea. There was too much red tape involved but somebody needs to try the idea since F1s fare well here.

Not had ever tasted methley before. Have you had 'shiro'? If so do you like them before going soft or after. To me an almost ripe shiro was the best plum I ever tasted. But now that I have hybrid 'lydecker' I am slowly getting my shiro trees replaced. Lydecker produces well, is more freestone than shiro, and is my new favorite now for flavor. Lydecker blooms very early like nadia, tends towards bushy with light branch structure that break easy making them a hard target for racoons and opposums.

Oh, Lydecker is F1, so stands to be interesting to watch for production but doing well so far.

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
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November 7, 2019 - 9:26 pm

Rooney said
Methley is an F1 hybrid too like Nadia is by the way. P1 and P2 for methley is 2 other plum species salicina and cerasifera. I have seen it lots in breeding charts used by ARS breeders in California. I tried to ask those breeders for F1 apricots between hunza species and the domestic types. They had lots for trial here but I gave up on the idea. There was too much red tape involved but somebody needs to try the idea since F1s fare well here.

Not had ever tasted methley before. Have you had 'shiro'? If so do you like them before going soft or after. To me an almost ripe shiro was the best plum I ever tasted.

I think I read that somewhere about Methley.   I have a Shiro tree and several trees with Shiro grafts.   I do like them just before fully ripe and also when fully ripe.  They make a nice jam, too.

I also have an unknown plum that the previous owner might have grown from seeds. Purple plum, green leaves.  And grafts of Hansen, LaCrescent, and Ember, none of which has ever set fruit.  I grew a Prunus americana for them.  It died of canker.  I loved Toka, but it mostly died of canker too.

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Rooney
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November 7, 2019 - 9:39 pm

It sounds by your values I need to try methley out then. The toka you speak of is acting similar to the toka I have and no fruiting yet. Which is F1 hybrid making almost all my plums F1 hybrids but one. Shiro is F1 and bulletproof. So my only plum not is my lydecker, sorry, after checking into this patent explaming this as not F1.

My pollinators exist as red leafed plum suckers from my neighbors yard, but the lydecker is far from there and needs me to carry pollen over to get fruit.

Thanks for that opinion!

11 hour later edit:

On waking up this morning I kind of realized my struggle last night about the question of *F1 x (P1 x P2) and why it would perform any better than **F1 for *lydecker vs **toka respectively. (yesterdays posting higher up) Then I took suppressive soils into consideration and further realized that even though both these plums were only 12 feet apart from each other the F1 toka was not planted in any previous place of a struggling apricot the the way my lydecker had been into the year after I had my hunza apricot die out at age 5+ right there. 

This suppressive soils idea (last link in #9 post different thread) is to me also evidenced by the fact that the immediate area where in Scotch Creek BC exists, they receive more rain than the standards of even Seattle, that an old man there I found had 2 apricot trees producing the natural way every year, being several years since talking with him.

At the time, and every year since, I had been exploring these places over the country for bird planted hybrids between North American bitter cherry and European sweet cherry, and these places around the BC creek area have fertile F1 hybrids between the two cherry species.

...And this would start to make sense that in order to have a fertile tree outlive another in our backyards then start to build you fruit tree in a place (such as I did w lydecker inadvertently) where you might be lucky having had suppressive soils.

The lydecker of mine was supported on american plum and since I am usually vacant from Vancouver in summers american plum shoots were always growing and dying off in the shaded position relative to the lydecker. ...the idea being that a suseptible american plum rootstock could feed and continue feeding the fauna in the suppressive soils for the benefit of the slightly more resilent lydecker plum in and in order for it to experience even more resilency. 

I have seen more and more cases without knowing it, one is the Vancouver PDX apricot growing near enough to some naturalized dying prunus virginiana chokecherries there, as one of these likely cases of suppressive fauna. These chokecherries seem to come from healthier populations around more arid Hood River Oregon locations and upstream of the river.

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John S
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November 11, 2019 - 7:40 pm

Methley and Shiro are probably my two favorite plums.  Very productive and delicious, and Hollywood is very productive and delicious too.  These varieties are well known for producing well in PNW but perhaps not elsewhere.

John S
PDX OR

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jekahrs
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November 20, 2019 - 3:15 am

I have a plum tree with four different plums. Thought it would be fun to put something like a pleurry on it. Can that be done and are there plum scions at the spring show? (Peaches and cherries too perhaps?)

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
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November 20, 2019 - 8:57 am

jekahrs said
I have a plum tree with four different plums. Thought it would be fun to put something like a pleurry on it. Can that be done and are there plum scions at the spring show? (Peaches and cherries too perhaps?)  

@jekahrs, I think the pluerries are all patented now, so can't be done.  They are developed at Zaiger nursery in California and sold under license,  with royalties.  I will defer to mire knowledgable members on grafting peaches or cherries to plum trees.  I have not tried those combinations myself.  I have see  plum, peach, and cherry scion at the Spring show and even brought some of my own there.

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Rooney
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November 20, 2019 - 12:55 pm

jekahrs said
I have a plum tree with four different plums. Thought it would be fun to put something like a pluerry on it. Can that be done and are there plum scions at the spring show? (Peaches and cherries too perhaps?)  

Only one of the pluerryTM (cherry x plum) hybrids is Nadia and is the only creation not originating from California. Not to be confused with the cherry-plum hybrid (sand plum x plum) in the picture provided above by Ronald Lewis. As Daniel said these pluerryTM hybrids are in all cases patented. This because they are the first time in history (eg. that by two people) true cherry has ever been brought together with plum. 

Note the registered TM trademark name for pleurry and this is registered by Zaiger in California. I have a 'sugar twist', a more yet exotic newbie in my yard from California consisting of 25% peach, 12.5% cherry. I might graft it to another plum outside if it ever proves unproductive in potted greenhouse conditions as I have with 'nadia' on plum per above (November 7, 2019 -12:10 pm). But I will never give these away at scion exchanges for the reasons Daniel already stated. 

Peaches have much less difficulty taking to plums as compared with the almost impossible real cherry / plum experiments. The best peach combination will be the lower part being a plum, the plum hybrid 'toka' as the interstem (per page 4 of 7, PDF), then finally your peach, the toka being the best found "all around peach-plum grafter", which has no patent. There is one interstem for sweet cherry with no patent that is 'adara' (prunus cerasifera plum). Although I have not seen it at our HOS scion exchanges I know there are other exchanges that do. 

Prunus cerasifera, is myrobalan plum, also sometimes referred as cherry-plum for the small cherry size fruit, but there is no basis with cherry other than fruit size. 

I do have 'toka' for the reason of grafting some curl resistant peaches to old plum trees but have not gone to that point yet.

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Crankyankee
Connecticut
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October 25, 2020 - 7:40 pm

Rooney said -  I am suprised yours still lives out on the open. Everywhere my peach or nadia branches stick outside of the covered area those branches die-back.  

Is this from winter temperatures? My Nadia is entering its first winter in the ground here and I'm wondering if this is something I should worry about. I have the Zaiger pluerries coming in the spring as well.

Zone 6a in the moraines of eastern Connecticut.

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Rooney
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October 25, 2020 - 9:38 pm

Crankyankee said

Is this from winter temperatures?

It is our PNW prolonged cooler weather dampness that causes the damages.

In 2019 when I said "Everywhere my peach or nadia branches stick outside of the covered area those branches die-back" therefore do not apply exactly to that kind of stress than it is to our huge ebb of 'bacterial pseudomonas syringae'. If our thermometers ever drop below freezing it never drops below the critical tissue freezing events of around 0F and when days do go freezing it only helps dry the exposed branches. In effect freezing days give trees that are more stressed and susceptible by bacterial gummosis a shortening of the "prolonged cooler weather dampness"; and it only helps.

Freezing days have been known to work for the worse with some strains of bacterial gummosis, none of which I am likely to encounter here. Gummosis is more likely to overpower trees that have been stressed in the root zone, such as my potted roots, by root/trunk vole damage, root nematodes, or anything else very stressful to the tree.

In PNW (probably where you are too with other diseases) you never want to have just any ordinary plum rootstock in a pot unless it's all the way (including branches) in a greenhouse.

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Rooney
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October 25, 2020 - 9:46 pm

My 'nadia' (small grafted branch) seems to be naturally happy on marriana-2624 rootstock outside my shelter. It's so close to that protected one that I consider it a legal bypass of the patent.

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jafar
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February 5, 2021 - 5:02 pm

I guess I've commented elsewhere, but hadn't updated here.

My Nadia did fruit in 2019, and we really enjoyed them.  They were better than I expected from other peoples' reports, and I could definitely taste sweet cherry in them.

Last year barely bloomed and now fruit set.  This year they are at green tip, looking ready for a pretty good bloom.  I hope we don't get any real hard freezes.  It's my earliest bloomer of all my fruits.  Earlier than Japanese plums and pluots, at least by a bit.

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DanielW
Clark County, WA
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February 8, 2021 - 11:05 am

Jafar, my Nadia didn't have any fruit last year.  I agree with you, it is among the very earliest stone fruits to bloom in my garden.  

Sweet Treat was about the same time.  Also, I have a fastigiate ornamental plum, I think called  Crimson Pointe, which blooms as early.  Crimson Pointe plums are actually very nice flavor but small and not a lot of flesh.  I grafted a scion to the tree next to my Nadia hoping for pollination.  We'll see.  I think Hollywood overlaps Nadia but Im not sure.

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jafar
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February 9, 2021 - 11:48 am

I've got a 4 in 1 pluot less than 20 feet from my Nadia, and have budded Beauty near it as well.  Hollywood a little further, then Shiro, AU Producer, and Howard Miracle and maybe Santa Rosa in other areas.  Plus cherries, but I think the plums bloom earlier.

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John S
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February 10, 2021 - 8:28 pm

I got no Hollywood plums last year. Very unusual.

JOhn S
PDX OR

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Crankyankee
Connecticut
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March 15, 2021 - 11:05 am

Rooney said

I have a 'sugar twist', a more yet exotic newbie in my yard from California consisting of 25% peach, 12.5% cherry.

Did you find a patent for Sugar Twist? I see where Dave Wilson is showing it as patent pending and I cannot come up with a patent that lists the name Sugar Twist so I am wondering which Zaiger patent is for Sugar Twist.

Zone 6a in the moraines of eastern Connecticut.

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Rooney
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March 15, 2021 - 6:58 pm

I wished you would have asked me that the week I said that (November 20, 2019) because I was in Alaska at the library at the time of posting it. Because (of course) they always come up with the market name after a patent. Here's how I kind of remember getting it;

To me it was extremely important because of a purchasing decision on my part takes lots of planning. I remember the nursery you listed as haven given the Zaiger test name that is not with me and still is placed in a file still in Alaska. I used that name to sync other interspecific patents by Zaiger, or had nailed the sugar twist pending patent, or both. From then forward I knew the exact breeding just prior to my making sure I was in line for an early January 2020 pick-up from a northern Cal. retailer. I could figure out the year but it won't matter as much that I know the nursery changed the market name away for the real name since that time and from here in Washington I can't point you to the patent right now (mouthful).

If I think of you when I return to Alaska with the papers in front of me again I will let you know. My notes here say it flowered lightly last year and about with sweet cherry. Flower buds raise out of the wood at the same time as japanese plums. This year as well. The flower buds of japanese (p salicina) are opening now while the sugar twist will remain in a suspended state for another 3-4 weeks before opening. Which is why I wanted to make sure I had the sugar twist in the first place. (its still light and I will run out and load a picture of what the buds look like with longer than any usual stems for the type of tree it is)

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Rooney
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March 15, 2021 - 7:27 pm

interspecific Sugar Twist (R)
(massive one year shoots on a 14 month ago purchase)

As usual for wide crosses such as this there may be no overlap with upcoming sweet cherry for 2021 like there was last year. But you never know.

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