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whip pruning questions
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quokka
Corvallis
187 Posts
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1
January 24, 2010 - 10:51 am

Viron asked for it, haha.

1) If there are lots of little branches (OK, not a model whip), including at the height where the lowest scaffold branches are desired, and above that, how far back should the little tree be headed?

2) If a whip/near whip does not have many branches, and buds are not visible all around the trunk (even predominant on just one side), should nicking or notching be applied (in addition to heading) to encourage a better distribution of limbs?

3) Are fig whips headed back like other whips?

Hopefully these will be of benefit to others and/or make for interesting conversation in addition to furthering my education!

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Viron
1409 Posts
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January 24, 2010 - 3:40 pm

1) Actually, lots of branches are far better than too few. I believe a “Whip,” in this case, would have no branches, being the one year old growth of a newly grafted rootsock. If it has branches, it’s at least two years old. By “heading” the tree, I envision removing everything above where you want the highest lateral or ‘scaffold’ limbs forming. Leaving 4 or 5 (apparently already formed) ‘new branches’ to become the trees ‘main branches,’ you may want to remove altogether ‘major competition’ from other well formed potential branches. Leave the small/weak shoots for bark shading.

2) I’ve never nicked or notched for limb production… If you’ve got a two to three year old tree you likely won’t see the latent buds you desire. Keep in mind, to initiate growth from the trunk it will need adequate sunshine to feed the desired limbs. Nicking the trunk on the north side will likely leave only a scar.

When planting a new tree I aim the best limbs North, that allows and encourages future limb formation on the southern or sunny side. Some like to Bud a new ‘branch’ to the trunk; if that’s not done within the first or second year, limb production above will generally shade it out as well. Even plugging in a scion with a bark graft on an established tree doesn’t work under much of a canopy – that I’ve done.

3) (I did ask for this…) Good question, and it depends if you’re trying to establish a fig tree, or clump. After losing entire fig trees, and getting to know the Fig Queen, Helen Webb of Yamhill, now deceased, I’ve since allowed mine to ‘clump.’ Clumping gives them far greater chances of surviving extreme cold, and to manage them you simply remove the oldest and largest ‘limbs’ – all emanating straight up from the roots – allowing for a constant rotation of new growth. My shoots generally grow for a couple of years; produce for 3 or 4, then are removed to allow more of the same. I rarely remove new shoots from their base – remember, they’re on their own roots - so they’re always true – and those will become producing ‘uprights’ in turn.

I do head and thin my ‘fig clumps.’ Does ‘Fig Fans,’ or Fig Bouquets sound better than ‘clumps’ :? Generally I thin them back to the branch they sprouted; meaning, the limbs that eventually form on the uprights. Fig stems are often hollow, so heading them leaves an opportunity for decay, removing the stem to its source leaves a clean wound.

I recommend against ‘Fig trees,’ or should I say, Figs pruned as trees. They’re difficult to manage and as mentioned, vulnerable to total loss with deep freezes. You’d always get shoots from the roots, but that could take 3 years to produce a half-decent crop. I looked over a botched pruning job on a fig tree last year… felt sorry for the owners, “He said he knew what he was doing…” If eliminating their crop was his intention – he did a great job!

Fig training and pruning in the Pacific NW, or at the northern edge of their range is a subject in serious need of coverage. I'm questioned often about them, but brought that on myself by starting and passing out scores of them over the last decade. – another note on leaving them as upright limbs, more resembling “Hazel” or Filbert ‘clumps,’ is the ease of harvesting them. This was Helen’s trick! You circle them on a summer morning, spot your target - then hand over hand ‘walk the stock’ out and down to you. They must be related to Rubber trees as they bend wonderfully. No ladder necessary!

Helen had a yearly clientele out for Portland; she’d store fresh picked figs in her ‘frost included’ refrigerator, call the person/s who’s favorites were ripe ...and spend the evening visiting with them in her truly magical orchard in the hills west of Yamhill, Oregon.

Am I far enough afield <img decoding=" title="Wink" />

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quokka
Corvallis
187 Posts
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3
January 24, 2010 - 8:13 pm

Viron, thank you. Sincerely. Unfortunately I have followup questions.

[quote="Viron":2vt86awn]1) By “heading” the tree, I envision removing everything above where you want the highest lateral or ‘scaffold’ limbs forming.[/quote:2vt86awn]

Ah! "Highest" is the word. Everything written talks about heading back to where we want them to start scaffold branches. If interpreting you correctly, it is fine to keep both the lowest set of intended scaffolds and then a second, higher set. Cutting above the second, higher set will not cause the second higher set to take off more than the bottom set. Is that a correct interpretation?

2) I’ve never nicked or notched for limb production… If you’ve got a two to three year old tree you likely won’t see the latent buds you desire. Keep in mind, to initiate growth from the trunk it will need adequate sunshine to feed the desired limbs.

When you say "won't see the latent buds you desire" do you mean that the 2-3 year old tree is too old and it is too late to get limbs down there, or that whether the latent buds are visible or not is irrelevant?

3) (I did ask for this…) Good question, and it depends if you’re trying to establish a fig tree,

Sorry for not being more clear. Fig trees offered for sale are whips. Should they be headed to induce branching, just like with other fruit trees?

Fig stems are often hollow, so heading them leaves an opportunity for decay, removing the stem to its source leaves a clean wound.

This almost makes me glad my question was of inadequate clarity. I thought I had read somewhere that figs are somehow different; hence my question. This makes it seem like the answer to the above rephrased question is "no. Just leave the whip alone."

Thanks for your patience and all the info.

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jadeforrest
237 Posts
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January 25, 2010 - 9:15 am

Figs ARE related to rubber trees, I believe. As are mulberries.

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Viron
1409 Posts
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January 25, 2010 - 4:27 pm

quokka:

“Ah! "Highest" is the word. Everything written talks about heading back to where we want them to start scaffold branches. If interpreting you correctly, it is fine to keep both the lowest set of intended scaffolds and then a second, higher set. Cutting above the second, higher set will not cause the second higher set to take off more than the bottom set. Is that a correct interpretation?”

Heading back a (one year old shoot) whip removes the terminal bud, thus encourages growth from the buds closest to the cut. When the shoot’s straight up, they become branches. …The uppermost branches will receive the most ‘sap’ and sunlight, those beneath will become secondary and are fairly short lived. I am talking about a vase shaped tree; a central leader (or modified leader) will have varying ages and stages of branches above branches… Most apple trees shake that habit, ending up with 4 or 5 main scaffolds. I like to start those sooner than later…

“When you say "won't see the latent buds you desire" do you mean that the 2-3 year old tree is too old and it is too late to get limbs down there, or that whether the latent buds are visible or not is irrelevant?”

You will no longer see latent buds in most apple stock over 3 years old, meaning the trunk. To ‘get limbs lower’ is difficult … you’d likely do better to lop off the entire trunk at the height of your highest desired limbs and train the ‘watershoots’ that would emerge. Attempting to establish lower limbs with ‘upper limbs’ shading and drawing nutrients is very difficult.

“Sorry for not being more clear. Fig trees offered for sale are whips. Should they be headed to induce branching, just like with other fruit trees?”

If you want a ‘fig tree,’ treat it’s “whip” as you would an apple tree. If you want “clumps,” don’t.

“This almost makes me glad my question was of inadequate clarity. I thought I had read somewhere that figs are somehow different; hence my question. This makes it seem like the answer to the above rephrased question is "no. Just leave the whip alone.”

Bingo! And, you’re welcome.

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Viron
1409 Posts
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6
January 25, 2010 - 4:32 pm

[quote="jadeforrest":17i18s6g]Figs ARE related to rubber trees, I believe. As are mulberries.[/quote:17i18s6g]

Thank you! I wonder how closely related they are to latex trees..? Fig sap is very unusual, so bitter it keeps deer and bugs away. There must be an industrial use in there somewhere :mrgreen:

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quokka
Corvallis
187 Posts
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7
January 25, 2010 - 10:01 pm

[quote="Viron":10pijr83] Fig stems are often hollow, so heading them leaves an opportunity for decay, removing the stem to its source leaves a clean wound.[/quote:10pijr83]

On the way home from work I stopped in at a local garden shop to look for some odds and ends. They had a lot of figs in pots they'd just received. One variety was headed. Hollow, and it looked like a white mold in the top. Of course it could have been something else, or nothing damaging, but it sure made the other varieties look better.

Thanks again for all the info. It is really appreciated.

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Viron
1409 Posts
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8
January 25, 2010 - 10:56 pm

You’re welcome, hope I’ve helped. Actually, the figs do fine with heading. My concern was having you lose even one of your ‘top buds’ when heading back the whip to form a ‘tree.’ Any dieback would mean the loss of an eventual branch or two…

When simply pruning them for length and size it’s no big deal to lose some buds. Most winters they’ll have some dieback… It will be interesting to see what December’s extreme cold did… But I generally head them back to the branch from which they sprouted… though not possible with a whip.

If you go for a fig and want a ‘tree,’ just let it sit tight until spring’s sprung, then remove the top; less chance for decay or infection …though I’d let them shoot straight up -- and send up all the root suckers they’d like :P

----------------------------------

…a question of my own to anyone familiar with “Filberts.” Passing some today, I noticed the ‘clumping’ effect described above. But they appear to be sending shoots from their roots.

Aren’t Filberts (or Hazels) grafted? And wouldn’t those shoots (being allowed to compete with productive cultivar growth) be rootstock – thus unproductive? …seen a recent ad for an experienced filbert pruner ...and briefly considered it… but I’d better get this puzzle figured out first. Won’t hold my breath for an answer, but ‘enquiring minds’ need to know :D

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John S
PDX OR
2952 Posts
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9
January 25, 2010 - 11:52 pm

Hey Viron,
Most filbert orchards I've seen have them trained to a tree shape. Filberts will naturally take a clump or bush shape.
John S
PDX OR

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jadeforrest
237 Posts
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10
January 26, 2010 - 6:43 am

Commercial orchards may have other reasons for the tree shape, though: ease of mechanical harvest or something like that. I was planning on letting my hazelnuts grow as a bush, since I plant to use them like a hedge. Apparently, that is a common use for hazelnuts in England.

But that's a very good point, Viron. I didn't think about the fact that these are potentially grafted. However, Burnt Ridge propagates hazelnuts either layered or grafted. So you could have the variety on its own roots.

In that case, the question is which is better for a home orchardist. I have no idea what the answer to that is. I'm not even sure what the tradeoffs would be.

Apparently hazelnuts sucker a lot, so if you do have a grafted variety, you'll have to be on top of it.

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quokka
Corvallis
187 Posts
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11
February 21, 2010 - 6:19 pm

Measure twice, cut once. Just want to verify.

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quokka
Corvallis
187 Posts
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12
February 21, 2010 - 6:33 pm

Wow. Figured out how to load images and get them to show up in the right order. This one definitely needs a cut very high up (not shown) but would this cause preferential growth of high branches and ruin the plan?

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Viron
1409 Posts
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13
February 22, 2010 - 9:32 am

“Where the first scaffold branches are desired. Where to cut?”

(top photos) That is no longer a one year whip, it’s at least two, if I could see the top, it may be three. Those ‘nubs’ look more like fruit spurs than potential limbs. None of them would ‘take off.’

Determine where you want your highest ‘branch’ and lop off the tree at that height, ignore the ‘nubs,’ your new growth and future branches should appear from ‘inside’ the bark, latent buds. As for the lowest ‘branch,’ I’d cut that off flush with the trunk, you want to force all new growth to the upper portion of the tree. These cuts will take bravery… but without them you’ll end up with a misshaped tree.

(second photos) Those look more like ‘branches,’ they’ve potential. Same principal; decide where you want your uppermost branches and lop off the tree just above them. You are in control of this tree, no matter where it’s current ‘limbs’ are. Though spindly, the apparent limbs and their terminal buds look capable of extending and beefing up. To force growth up, simply remove the lower branches. This tree’s in far better shape than the first (above) and should respond well.

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quokka
Corvallis
187 Posts
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14
February 22, 2010 - 3:31 pm

Viron:

Thanks once again for your patience and efforts to educate me. They are sincerely appreciated.

[quote="Viron":2qnj8riw]“Where the first scaffold branches are desired. Where to cut?”

(top photos) Those ‘nubs’ look more like fruit spurs than potential limbs. None of them would ‘take off.’ [/quote:2qnj8riw]

Thank you thank you.

Since the desired first scaffold branches are down low, this will get hacked off very low, below all the nubs.

[quote="Viron":2qnj8riw][color=#0000FF](second photos) Those look more like ‘branches,’ they’ve potential. Same principal; decide where you want your uppermost branches and lop off the tree just above them. You are in control of this tree, no matter where it’s current ‘limbs’ are. Though spindly, the apparent limbs and their terminal buds look capable of extending and beefing up. [/quote:2qnj8riw]

Thank you.

Since the first desired scaffold branches are down low (and in place) and there are more desirable limbs further up, this one will not get hacked off at all, for fear that this would stimulate growth higher up at the expense of growth of limbs further down.

Viron, you deserve some sort of award for your patience!

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Viron
1409 Posts
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15
February 23, 2010 - 4:15 pm

(second tree) Keep in mind most energy will congregate higher up, stimulating the uppermost branches first. I’d cut off all but the branches you want, then monitor their growth.

If any ‘latent buds’ on the trunk ‘pop’ - those will definitely dominate. Manipulating the trees to the degree you are requires a bit more effort and attention than most.

As for your generous thank you, you’re welcome. Corresponding with like-minded fruit fanatics makes my years of the same seem a bit less …crazy 8)

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quokka
Corvallis
187 Posts
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16
June 4, 2010 - 10:26 am

On the off chance that I or somebody may learn something, here are how things have turned out (at least to this point).

The first tree has been a disaster. The tree has a couple of very short limbs started, certainly much shorter than the new growth on an unpruned tree of the same variety that is nearby. It has formed plenty of leaves right off the trunk, some of which look to be blackened at the edges. Speculating about the reasons for the weak response:

1) The cuts were made too late, as some green budding had started high up. This is my bet for the #1 problem.
2) It is harder and thus slower for a tree of that age to start new limbs down low. (By the way, those "buds" may have been for limbs after all, though the thought of it growing as a columnar was kind of amusing.)
3) Just bad luck.

The second tree has not done much. In retrospect, this one should have been cut way back in the fall; will end up doing it this fall. Looks like everything has been slowed up a year, but at least this one seems likely to eventually thrive.

Obviously the issue of what height to prune the first tree was an issue of confusion. There are sources which say to prune just above where branches are desired, sources which say to prune 6-8 inches above where branches are desired, and sources which say to prune 12-16 inches above where branches are desired. While one of these may be more correct than the others, if timing was the problem, any of them would have been better than what happened, if simply done earlier.

It does seem like every pruning book and article I've looked at took a very textbook perspective in that trees are expected to conform to a set of specifications, making the pruning decisions fairly rote. But the little trees I've seen often don't fit the specs. It would help if the books pulled together a bit more of concepts, to allow the reader (who I'm guessing often lacks a lot of experience) to figure out an approach to take. If somebody knows of a book which does this please recommend it, or it may be there is an opportunity for somebody to become a really rich and well known author.

Any insights which would accelerate learning would be well received.

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