Please note: this thread has expanded to 5 pages, so you may want to use the go to page feature on the upper right side, Viron
The following might best have been submitted to the HOS Pome News ... but you'd likely not see it until the middle of next Summer, and the time to prune is now ... and, I've got to write when inspired!
I've just climbed out of some apple trees; I haven't begun pruning my own yet - but have been doing some 'favors' for friends. One friend has around 20 apple & pear trees, I’d say 12 years old; she hasn't been getting much fruit. The trees look wonderful, growing along a dead-end city street, they're pruned to within 6 feet high, with no deer problems... Last winter I worked with her to show what I'd do 'different,' mainly - leave the fruit spurs! For years she'd been removing the 'small twigs' down to the larger scaffold branches. What little fruit she’d get appeared to be from the spurs she’d miss - no fruit spurs - no fruit! (Her "tip-bearers" weren't doing much better.)
This year, I pruned the trees for her. Beginning at my leisure early this fall I was pruning in a T-shirt and sunglasses, on fully leafed trees 
I finished last week in long-underwear, an insulated helmet liner hat, inside fully dormant trees 
But if it's not raining - I love to prune fruit trees! I feel like an artist, circling my work, sculpting as I go. I'd received a valued compliment from our HOS Arboretum manager a couple years ago as she described my ability to, “Make the big cuts." Yup, big cuts save a lot of work! One of the few times I'm irritated when pruning is having worked a tree over, then finally deciding to remove a large limb ... a limb I'd already made umpteen 'heading' cuts on... But working inside those perfectly structured trees of my friend (a real Artist), it was down-right fun! Lesson: Stay on your trees yearly, keeping their growth balanced, structure strong, and size & shape manageable.
Up the street there was a different story... I'd decided to do some rejuvenation work on a well shaped, approximately 30 year old, duel-grafted apple tree (two varieties on one tree). Another friendly gesture on my part, not only do I appreciate the owners, it was a 'treat' to be turned loose in the yard of one of this small town’s oldest and most magnificent homes: "The Laughlin House." Unfortunately, this tree’s condition was the antithesis of those little gnomes I'd just climbed out of ... this apple tree was so 'congested' I could barely climb into it!
I 'circled,' planning my strategy... And for the next couple hours bounced between my stiff-bladed Corona pruning saw and my largest loppers - with little care as to where I'd laid my hand pruners. One set of upward growing 'limbs' were so tight they'd naturally grafted themselves together! After sawing one, I had to pound it away from its 'neighbor.' And it nearly became work removing a dozen or so 2-inch straight up (trees unto themselves) limbs from the canopy. Now I've learned to prune for access, both for picking, spraying, and future pruning; so I did - and used that corridor to drag these onetime 'water sprouts' out. The satisfaction came as it magically began to look like an apple tree again.
There was evidence throughout that 'someone' had been there before; later that was confirmed, "I didn't know where to start" confessed the owner. Once the bulk of upward unnecessary growth was removed, I began circling again... With strategically placed cuts, I lopped off more and more. My mental method is to remove anything growing straight up - straight down - or back toward the center of the tree. And though the owners had trusted me there alone, I could imagine them cringing while I continued to remove fairly large hunks of their tree. I must often give bystanders my: "A Robin can fly through a well pruned tree" lecture. But this wasn't one of those situations, the only 'arguments' were inside my head - and I didn't lose time 'talking anyone through the process' ... though I actually enjoy that, to a point ~
As I removed a multitude of stubs from the previous pruning attempts, I also did a service to whoever mows the lawn... I'll never forget a brother-in-law, not really thanking me for the beautiful structure of his fruit trees, but for his new found ability to mow under them! Usually the lowest branches don't amount to much fruit-production wise, they seem more inclined to harbor decay and are rarely missed... I could already 'feel' the apple tree thanking me as I followed its original lines, gradually bringing it back to a thing of beauty. Twasn't as fun out there in full winter garb, or wading among its entire crop of apples under my feet; but I knew what I'd done would bring a more positive focus on this lone apple tree and encourage its owners to take off from there.
I removed a couple small dead stumps from the yard (W/ chainsaw), stuffed the second load of debris into my truck, fed the dogs the last treats I'd brought them, (and thanked them for being so patient - or quiet), and finally warmed up my hand pruners by making those all-important heading cuts on the newest wood - aiming the buds toward another 30 years...
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A quick search brought up the following sites on Pruning / Training. I hate to admit it's taken me over 25 years to learn what I have ... but a grasp of the basics, while making an educated guess is better than nothing.
Training & Pruning Fruit Trees
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/ag29.html
FRUIT TREE PRUNING by Phil Mathewson
http://eap.mcgill.ca/MagRack/COG/COG_H_93_03.htm
Viron, thanks for a very enjoyable read. One of the articles whose link you posted recommends pruning "as late in the winter as possible" and yet you were pruning in the fall. I have some peach and cherry trees that I'd like to prune during this cold but DRY spell. Would you recommend waiting?
Thanks,
Steve
You're welcome Steve; it's fun to share something I occasionally consider borderline insanity ... and find a few others that appreciate the same.
Your question regarding the advice to wait "as late in the winter as possible" to prune is an excellent one!
For years, living in the relatively mild Willamette Valley, I read and followed that same advice. It's based on the possibility that the reader / pruner may experience weather so cold that bud dieback will occur nearest the pruned ends. Therefore, the buds you left 'aimed' would become dead stubs, with unaffected buds further back now aiming the direction of new growth. And, all those frozen stubs could become disease portholes. I'd be way 'behind' on my yearly pruning - waiting for the December / January weather to pass.
During a special invite to the onetime schoolhouse (Jessie’s) home of Byron and Jessie Webster {Home Orchard Society and its Luelling Memorial Chapter founding members}, my wife and I watched them make apple juice. This was of course Fall, and Jessie described her process of harvesting apples. She’d take up her hand pruners to prune first -- then pick and haul down the apples. They had many full-sized apple trees on their old place, and didn't see any reason to climb them twice. I asked if she had freezing dieback on the stems? Much higher in the Coast Range than we, she answered, "Never." ...And, that 'never' went back quite a few years...
I’m also hearing more about the beneficial affects of Summer Pruning. I’d known of its ability to balance a trees vigor by removing water sprouts - or that seasons solar collectors. An additional benefit: with the sap still flowing & tree growing, these cuts are quickly sealed from within to disease. I now figure the Fall pruning I do benefits by balancing the growth and sealing those cuts.
So, that warning is for people in colder regions than mine - I wish they'd specify that -- as I've missed the equivalent of years waiting for the Spring-pruning (grafting) crunch 
i need to ask a beginner's followup question: i live in wisconsoin, zone 5, and i have a neglected apple and pear orchard. my preference would be to prune when i feel like it, except while the blossoms are donig their thing. this means summer and fall and winter pruning. am i way off base on this?? ought i to wait until late winter? does it make any difference?
help??
reisjdmd; I suspect there's an optimal time to prune, like when things are completely dormant, prior to Spring... But we can't always work like that. "Summer Pruning's" been recommended to me for years, I'm told it balances the trees vigor by removing some of the solar collecting leaves / vegetation before they store an abundance of energy that generally results in hundreds of unwanted "water-sprouts." ...Then again, we're told those "water-sprouts" are what feed the fruit development... Confused? Me too! So I continue to rely on my gut instinct -- and 25 years of experience...
Spring works -- other than you'll be 'rubbing off' a lot of emerging buds as you drag material from the tree. And, you'll have to carefully tip-snip (using your hand pruners) to avoid clipping off the emerging leaves as you make your heading cuts at the end of each branch. I've pruned a few trees 'late' like that, it's more work, and damage, disregarding any flowers...
Summer, it's hot and cluttered in those trees! And by removing large 'shading shoots,' you can allow the main scaffold limbs to be sunburned ... I have. And it's always best (for me) to view the structure of the tree as you prune; this is nearly impossible when it's fully leafed out. And, as you'd drag anything big from the tree, you'd definitely tear up some remaining leaves, and snap off some fruit spurs in the process... If you're simply trying to head off those pesky 'water-sprouts,' like I said, it's been discovered that they're what's feeding the fruit development.
Fall: That's working better for me all the time. There's still enough 'juice' in the tree to seal the cuts; it lowers the trees wind profile and snow/ice-load surface area; the fruits been harvested, and you can somewhat 'regulate' how much energy gets transferred to the roots from the still green leaves; and - the trees look great all winter! - did I mention it's still warm ? And if you can't see 'next years buds,' they're at the base of every leaf -- just run your fingers down the shoots to knock them off. Then you can rake up excess fruit, leaves, and prunings all at once. ...then you can spray them (with lime sulfur) and not smell like rotten eggs after climbing in and out of them -- or waste coating material you'd cut off anyway.
Winter: Classic pruning; there stands you - and your specimen -- it's 38 degrees and raining... Its form's fully visible, and the faster you work - the warmer you stay; less problems navigating the leafless framework, and the water sprouts nearly beg to be snipped off. I've read that if there's extremely cold weather after you make your heading cuts (end cuts on a branch 'aiming' the bud the direction you'd like to see it grow) the end bud can dieback leaving stubs that harbor disease, and 'aim' your limbs differently as growth would begin from the next live bud... I've never seen such damage, thus have learned to start earlier than later 'around here.'
But you "have a neglected apple and pear orchard." I'd have been cutting very hard most of this winter... You no doubt have the 'trees within a tree' look..? Where water-sprouts were allowed to grow for years, each heading straight up, then branching... Those need to be removed. But remember, doing so will expose the "Branch" they're growing from to intense sunlight -- so don't remove every 'little' twig or shoot on those horizontal main branches, leave a few to leaf-out and shade them. I've been in trees so overgrown with those big upright shoots that I'd cut em, grab on, and dive off the limb! I'd be lucky to get the first 3 or 4 ripped down through the tangled canopy. But it got easier ... and more dangerous! They're a lot of work to remove, but after you do, what remains looks more like a 'fruit tree.'
I'd ignore any moss, the sun might take care of that, and it'll keep down the sunburn (for now). Next you thin, and thin. While circling the tree, remove anything growing straight up, or off the bottom of a main branch. You'll be cutting 'fruiting wood' for sure, but re-establishing a framework that will support far more than you 'remove.' It ain't Rocket-science... What you'll be left with are the lengthy tips of limbs; either shorten them back to a nicely aimed branch, or snip the tip, with the bud generally aimed down. It's about that simple - but an aluminum 3-leged "orchard ladder," sharp "bypass" hand pruners and loppers, and a small handheld pruning saw should be all you need. I've taken a small chainsaw into some trees with me -- but that's extremely dangerous ... you're on a ladder, and generally working in close proximity to your neck, surrounded by a thicket of knurly limbs - so saw that stuff out by hand - you'll stay even warmer!
Enough? It's not too late by any means, just get some help to pile the debris so you can burn it (if you can legally burn); stay supported by both an arm and a leg if you free climb inside a tree; but try to stay out of wet (slick) trees, you can prune from a good ladder. And make it fun! Chickadees, Juncos and Nuthatches will often land while I'm in a tree -- and you know you've done a good job if a Robin can fly through it - and you'll likely find its nest next year!
Interesting web page. I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The zip code requests shows I am in 6 also which is one zone warmer than where I lived in Alabama, but the zones are based on temps extremes not length of growing season, in my opinion. I could grow a lot of things in ALA that I can't here because of length of season. Likewise many hardy things here dry up in the heat in Ala even thou here is a warmer zone. Miles
Let me echo I also enjoyed the post as well as your advice and teaching from last weekend's class.
I am confused by one of your statements:
...Then again, we're told those "water-sprouts" are what feed the fruit development...
Is that documented somewhere? In my limited experience I had never heard that before.
jafarj; thanks. I'd have to dig through my Pome News publications to find that ... but not all that far. To remain "politically correct" on this site, I thought I'd better mention that research -- as I'd found it in our publication.
What I can remember actually made sense; the "water-sprouts" serve a purpose, as you'd assume they would - being the tree's giving up so much to produce them. The "find" seemed to be the energy they transferred to the developing fruit. They're to be viewed as 'solar collectors,' and to remove them, during the growing season, lessens fruit size and development... At least that's what I took away from the article.
There's been banter about posting our Pome News publication online... and I believe it's still being held out as a "benefit of membership." I haven't formally voted one way or the other -- I just keep paying my dues...
[quote="mo1martin":7v11cbif]Interesting web page. I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The zip code requests shows I am in 6 also which is one zone warmer than where I lived in Alabama, but the zones are based on temps extremes not length of growing season, in my opinion. I could grow a lot of things in ALA that I can't here because of length of season. Likewise many hardy things here dry up in the heat in Ala even thou here is a warmer zone. Miles[/quote:7v11cbif]
Miles, I agree... We've had more participation from across the nation, and someone suggested we give our "USDA climatic zones" as a reference. Sounded like a good idea, till we began coming up with highly conflicting zone numbers ? I searched around, and liked the ease of use and consistency with the one tacked onto the end of my posts. "Zone 6" is pretty much where the best of gardening books had pegged me. ...Speaking of which, if you'd really like to pin down your new location - check out the Sunset Western Garden Book / Encyclopedia … we could argue for days over that one!
Anyway, here's the 'disclaimer' from the site I link to:
"The widely recognized USDA climatic zones on the map below, although not absolute, give a good indication of plant hardiness. Simply put, this means what kind of temperature extremes can a plant survive. Generally a plant can survive in zones warmer than its own, but will perform best within the zone specified. It is the minimum temperature which is most important."
I guess we're basically talking "Extremes?" ...while seeking the ultimate micro-climate
While finishing up some pruning on an out-of-the-way apple tree yesterday, it struck me - there's a bit more to pruning than simply removing "anything growing straight up, straight down, toward the center, then 'heading' the tips." Granted, you'll likely have 85% of your work done with those cuts, but that leaves 15% of some trickier work - Thinning.
After years of watching me work over my trees, family members still ask, "But what do you do there?" -- pointing to a dense area of growth further out a limb. "Pay attention" I answer; most of what I take off now comes fairly automatic, but proper thinning takes some thought. Actually, the method of removing "anything growing straight up or down" works pretty well, and it's a good start. Granted, you're into your 'fruiting wood' out there, and will likely be removing fruit spurs with most cuts - but think of it as 'pre-thinning' your fruit set; what's left will have more space, better air circulation, more sunlight and less competition.
I'm likely to repeat myself around here - but I often think of my friend Helen Webb of Yamhill when thinning. Helen was well into her eighties, yet still pruning her large orchard alone. Walking it with her, she attempted to size up my abilities; "What would you do there?" she'd ask, pointing to a knurly old prune tree. "I'd take off that, that, and" "That's enough" she'd announce! - "You'd remove most of my crop!" "I'd thin that tree out so it could hold a crop," I responded. As it happened, the following season was a "good one," everything was loaded ... as Helen sheepishly pointed out the very tree we'd discussed - two massive limbs had broken off its trunk from the fruit load. She assured me they'd, "Still ripen" - as the tree was basically destroyed. - Lesson: lose some fruit spurs - save your tree! {though that went unspoken among friends}
Back up the ladder: Follow the branches back to their main limb, if you've a decision between two cuts, make the one that shortens the longest branch; balancing the length and strength among branches. Follow every cut back to a 'logical' intersection, or fork; try not to leave stubs. The more you remove - the more obvious the remaining cuts! Your crop is more dependant on pollination and frost-free spring nights than 'what you leave' on the tree. And remember the saying, "A Robin can fly through a well pruned tree."
So, after you've made all the big (easy) cuts, pay close attention to the thinning. As I've given demonstrations of this, I have to remind people that everyone will make a slightly different decision on what to remove. And don't become paralyzed pondering which cut somebody else would make - just do it! But remember, this isn't an exercise in fruit spur removal - they simply leave with that excess wood. And you'll have to 'tolerate' the weird directions your spurs are aimed; that's difficult some times for me, but I can still hear Helen ... and she had a valid point.
Replying to myself ... is this getting bad or what? Maybe I've just got Spring Fever 
" title="Laughing" /> Or maybe it's simply time to celebrate -- I just finished pruning the last of my 27 fruit trees for this season! And I suppose it's getting bad when you find yourself drifting into the underbrush to prune Ocean Spray, Hazel (brush), and Thimbleberries - but what-the-heck, the principle’s the same, and they look better to boot!
Actually, I'm done a bit early this year, and, I must admit, some years I don't finish. And if I can dodge the tender emerging leaves, I'm doing good. While cleaning up around a Golden Delicious tree this afternoon I couldn't help but notice a perfect, tight-budded stick of (you guessed it) scion wood... As it was off one my 4 "Deer apple" trees - west, I realized I hadn't any Golden's on my "Deer apples" - east. OK, what are Deer apples..? They are two sets of 4 trees planted as far from the house as possible, left strictly for the deer, raccoons, Varied Thrushes & Flickers ... so they'll leave my orchard alone! Did it work? No way... So at some point in their 13 years I decided to utilize the apples myself; mainly grinding and pressing them into juice.
Well, as I packaged up some of that infamous Gravenstein apple today, I had a short fat piece left; hating to waste any of the precious scions from our Exchange, I headed down early to graft that piece to the Deer apples - east. Found a matching candidate limb, and did a slick tongue & groove graft; labeling it as I'd noticed others doing at the Exchange: "Herinckx Gravenstein." Well, that had felt so good; I figured I'd do the same with that Golden Del. stick.
Finding no candidates (cause I'd pruned them all off) for a whip & tongue graft, I hiked back to the house for my pruning saw ... to make two cleft grafts instead. The neighbor kids found it fascinating; though my daughter didn't... I think she's grafted out. But what a blast -- grafting in the afternoon sun And as the moves felt automatic, I secretly wondered how I'd do getting on in Hood River (@ $50 per hour) top-working their apple orchards? Grafting and getting paid... is there such a thing? Anyway, I painted em up with the bright yellow stuff, tagged & flagged and washed out the brush while having only one of my first batch of large grafting bands left before breaking into my new shipment!
Burnt my "Agricultural" tree debris yesterday; while chucking today's snippings into the woods. It's a fun time of year, especially for a grafter... and as I await the bark to "slip" on a prune tree (before it gets a couple inverted L bark grafts of "Seneca,") I'm going to have to find something else to do... Like mow the lawn, till the gardens, drag & dice 10 windfall firs, and keep the home fire burning.
You sound like someone who might have some experience--but maybe all of your trees have been well loved for generations... We just moved to a place with some old, badly neglected apple trees out back. Some of them still bear fruit, in fact we made some delicious apple sauce and even some pies this fall, although the little green apples did require some stewing. There are some red apples too (I will try to identify them properly this fall...) We're planning to just cut off the dead and damaged wood this year (for the fruit bearing trees at least) and assuming they survive that, do some further pruning next year, but (hopefully) nothing too radical at any one time.
If nothing else, you can reply to someone other than yourself this time (hee hee)...
You talkin to me Hey, this place has been in the family since 1912... Great Grandpaw was an Orchardist, followed by another (married in, so he had to know something about fruit trees!), and now me... When I got the place 27 years ago it didn't look as it does now... Most of the trees were from the earliest original planting, and since it had been nothing but Dug firs before that, they were Great Grandpaws, and nobody’d had the heart to mess with them...
The apple trees were enormous! With no 'dwarfing' in sight - they must have been planted on seedling / standard roots? Choked with moss 2 inches thick, the lichens were permanent. There wasn't a lot of physical damage, the Orchardist in-between had seen to that, but they were too high to prune, spray or harvest safely; thus the fruit basically went to the deer. Actually, production was scant; and the varieties, once 'cutting edge' (they actually dated the orchard) were has-beens... I had my favorites, but sad to say, the rest are now gone.
I gave most of them a chance; hacking off 10 inch diameter up-right "limbs," I'd ring them with crown veneer and inverted L bark grafts. Leaving the 'other half' of the tree to feed the root system, if the grafts grew fast enough to keep that limb / trunk alive, in a few years, I'd re-work the other side. I played around too, like grafting Bartlet pear onto a large branch of Winter Banana apple, one of few pear / apple combos that work. Even with their success, most of the trees were eventually removed; but for every tree removed - I'd replace them with three! And after joining the Home Orchard Society, was inspired to try more exotic fruits - like figs, persimmons, seedless grapes, mulberries, and kiwi.
...Did you actually have a question..? ...more of a situation - if much like mine. I'd suggest you identify the apples then decide if they're 'rare' enough to save for that aspect alone. If you've a favorite, it can be salvaged. My favorit’s a massive leaning Gravenstein apple tree (I've a photo with my 16 year old Grandmother sitting cross-legged in front of it - the tree looked around 8 years, already leaning!). That tree has a rotted hollow trunk resting on a concrete pier, but it's pruned to perfection; it even has a 'replacement' grafted on a root sucker at its base. Yours is a tough call -- I drive past many such orchards; trees unsafe to climb, as the fruit goes to the birds, deer, or livestock. But who wants to take one down..?
I'd pick a couple favorites and rejuvenate them; even graft new branches at a lower level. But the rest may be candidates for removal; if they’re not rare, are unproductive, or have major wounds. And there's little more exciting to an Orchardist than room for more! But that's more homework... Are there any good organizations (like ours) in your area? If not, the catalogue of a reputable local nursery is a good start for searching successful fruit producing plants (it's just too difficult for me to only mention apples..). Just remember - everything in a nursery catalog is Superior, Exceptional, or "Outstanding!" so ask around... But if you simply like that big old apple orchard look -- that - "This homestead's been here forever" impression ... scrape off their moss, prune the deadwood, remove those massive upright (trees-within-a-tree) one-time water-suckers ...and did I mention buying a 16 foot 3-leged Orchard Ladder? ...make em pretty - just don't kill yourself in the process!
And thanks for someone to talk to ... though I tend to ramble.
You've given me a bit of an education... From your description, I think my trees are in better shape than your's were (at least the ones still living). We've got something like seven acres, mostly wild hillside, but a few wet areas and there is a beaver dam next door (very pretty but bad news for the trees). There are about six apple trees, not giants thank goodness but they have definitely been let go. I don't think we will tear down anything that is still living, unless it is the apple tree that has been uprooted and is now lying on the ground--but it does bear a little fruit yet. They are all on the back of the property anyway so we are just going to cut off all the dead wood and any terribly damaged limbs this year. There are some raspberry bushes trying to grow near the apple trees that I plan to encourage and some white pines that probably should be moved. They are growing too close together and too close to the water as well, but I don't know if I'll get to it. It will be nice to have a windbreak eventually. This year I'm planting sugar maples, several flowering trees (including my childhood favorite, the lilac!) and a couple of hazelnut trees. If all goes well I will plant plum, apple, pear, blueberry and possibly cranberry next year. Oh, there is also a service berry tree somewhere on the property, or so I've been told. So, lots of plans... I plan to keep planting so that if some of the trees don't make it there should be others that do. I will keep looking for a local organization... Time to go! The kids need to be put to bed!
Amy
The age of your trees is important; mine were 70 years old giants, too giant. ...Beaver dam? Yikes! --- I watched an energetic Brother take apart one of those by hand (years ago, to save a county road from flooding). That beaver never returned... but a mile down the road, same creek - one did! It took out several beautiful ten year old apple trees, in 2 or 3 nights work. I inarched (grafted), supporting and spanning the wounds, but that only saved the trees that hadn’t been reduced to chips and stumps.
That mess gave me enough concern that I wrapped my furthest away and closest-to-the-creek apple tree trunks in galvanized poultry fencing (chicken wire). I took 6 foot high wire fencing, folded it in half and wrapped from the base up - a good four feet - encircling their lower limbs as well. From time to time it's necessary to re-wrap them, removing leaf debris and making sure it doesn’t constrict the tree. So far - so good! Now if I could only keep the neighbor kids out of them
Sooooooo, I'd recommend you do something similar with your trees. You can use any old fencing, just don't wrap it too tight, or leave any gaping holes - but go high enough up their trunks ... however high that is..?
Yours sound like 'middle aged' apple trees, therefore easily identifiable varieties... unless their planter was a collector (like us). Once you figure out what varieties they are, you can decide how much effort to expend rejuvenating, or removing / replacing them. One thing about neglected apple trees, they've usually reached equilibrium; but as soon as you start removing anything - the battle begins! They'll send up a multitude of water sprouts you'll have to snip - and snip... But that's also a sign of their vigor, and occasionally good candidates for grafting different varieties or training into new limbs.
Best of all, you mentioned 'kids.' I wasn't sure of your age... but you've got the time (if not at the moment), the energy, desire, and hopefully - some eventual help 
Yes, I am thinking of the kids when it comes to planting trees, especially the sugar maples, although I do expect to enjoy some of the apples myself. The boys are still in diapers, so it will be a few years before they can start pitching in.
It's good to hear that there is such a thing as living next to a beaver dam, because we are awfully close. I am buying bypass pruning shears and a saw this weekend, as well as some chicken wire--I was planning to do something similar to what you mentioned, and I'm glad to hear that it was a good idea. I don't know how I will manage with the old trees, though. Their limbs are nearly on the ground already....
It was a beautiful day here in upstate New York--warm enough to be early summer, although there is still snow lingering on the shady side of the house. I can't wait to start planting!
So do you give seminars out where you are?
Amy
Our society held pruning seminars in a local (Portland) park, where the HOS helped maintain an historical orchard. I never made it to any though - had my own 'park' to play in at home. I believe we (the society) now give our pruning seminars at our HOS Arboretum (at Clackamas Community College), though I've never attended those either. I've envisioned several instructors turning the 'class' over to one person (not likely me), whereas the rest of us had better stay quiet as not to second-guess their every cut... I'm sure I'd nod at some - and cringe at others. I watched a library video on Pruning (a couple times) but without stereoscopic vision, it's very difficult to see all you must for that next cut to jump out at you. And books try - but you've simply got to be there.
The only "seminars" I've done have been for family, friends & neighbors. As mentioned - I love to prune! ...and am already missing it ... has me looking foreword to Winter! (lol) I've driven by the trees I'd described pruning in a neighboring town many times now, and just love to admire their structure. I'm planning on getting a photo of that lone apple tree at full bloom (if I left any buds).
"It was a beautiful day here in upstate New York--warm enough to be early summer, although there is still snow lingering on the shady side of the house." I winced at that -- snow? I'll stop complaining about the cold right now! Our weather’s at least been dry, almost too dry. The weather-boys keep predicting rain (generally a safe bet), once describing it as a 'soaking rain,' but I’ve not seen any lately. An Oregonian, I'm making the most of this dry, if cool and overcast weather. ...and - the sun's out! I'd better do something about that
lafollette8 ... You hanging in there with all that ugly weather in your neighborhood? I heard this morning that New York's Central Park got 7 inches of rain! I think that was correct..? ..Though I can hardly believe it! The most rain this native Oregonian's ever seen in one day was three and a half inches! ...followed by about the same the next day, and before we knew it - the President was landing at Portland's waterfront to visit our flood ravaged area!
We’ve just had a decent stretch of sunshine, followed by more "Spring” - which around here consists of periodic rain permeated by brilliant sunshine; though I'm still waiting for the sunshine this morning. My Gravenstein’s are just beginning to bloom; the pears have been slowly opening this last week. The plums are finished ... all but one, my favorite, Burbank's Red Ace... Sitting in a low corner of the yard, blooming late as is, by now there’s nothing left to cross with it; thus I'll get another crop of maybe 10 plums. My daughter suggested we cut a blooming bouquet from another plum to lay among its limbs. "Brilliant" - I said! “You have been paying attention!” Problem: we're behind the local bloom as is, and, who's got an extremely late blooming plum..?
I considered driving higher into our Coast Range (mountains) yesterday, watching for a late blooming Japanese plum ... then I thought again... On a drive through the valley yesterday we saw all kinds of blooming fruit trees -- just no plums. Sooo I'm gonna have to research the absolute-latest-blooming-Japanese-plum-tree (only to find out it's mine!?), find scion wood next year, and do more of that grafting stuff. I often wonder how nice it must be to live in an area where all this stuff was figured out a century ago... but I guess Luther Burbank may not yet have worked his Magic?
Hope you get your power back soon ... and that there's less damage than expected - hang on!
Thanks Viron, for your concerns! The power is back on, at least at our house, so I can't say that we've suffered, having missed the worst of it. But it was a wake up call--think now, could you locate one of your flashlights right now if you had to? 
And don't forget to run the dishwasher before the next storm " title="Laughing" /> . Of course, you never know whether or not to believe all the hype when the storm warnings come out, when more often than not you'll get nothing more than a drisle. Just now there is about a foot of heavy slush outside and more snow predicted--not pretty! I'm still waiting to hear how the rest of the area fared.
Good luck with your plum tree. My parents' faithful old plum tree bloomed year after year and produced plenty of fruit, although as I recall, the limbs were few. The delicately sweet yet somehow dry plum juice was reserved for Thanksgiving dinners and the like. Hopefully, I will be planting plum trees of my own this year or the next....
Take care,
Amy
P.S. And I still have spring fever!
So - you did lose power ...but yes, after 27 years in the woods - our flashlights are near & dear. We've actually a protocol for predicted storm's - but like you said, "Of course, you never know whether or not to believe all the hype when the storm warnings come out, when more often than not you'll get nothing more than a drizzle." They say the weather's extremely difficult to predict in the Pacific NW, I'll agree.
And I'm afraid my lonesome plum's in need of more than luck, I'm already betting against a heavy crop... but that means I'll be eating more figs; they're ripe at the same time. I'll have friends and neighbors thanking me endlessly for handing them an 18 count egg carton heaped with figs... as I'm secretly thinking 'enough already -- let me get over to those Burbank Red Ace’s!' Some day I hope to have enough to share, the tree just keeps getting larger.
Since this is 'officially' about Pruning (I think?), I'll mention how bullet proof my Japanese plums have been, and how easy they are to graft other (Japanese) plums to. ...But, they can really form a thicket, and require more pruning than most fruit trees. And, they apparently grow these naturally sharp spikes (sharp little branches only a couple of inches long) around their branches. Once you snip them, they're gone; but while shifting my weight in my Red Ace this year (it's finally big enough to stand in), I let my left hand down right onto one of these 'thorns.' ...There wasn't a lot of blood, but I stopped using that hand to prune for a few days.
And Spring Fever, yes - enjoy!
To be honest, I hadn't given any thought to which plum tree to buy. I was just going to go to the nursery while my sister in law (and neighbor) is working and pick out the ones she says will grow well in our little corner of the world (and be tasty). But I will add the japanese plums to my list and give them some thought!
Amy
I pruned the first of my apples trees a few weeks ago. It was much easier and more fun than I expected. I just cut off as much dead wood as I could reach and two badly damaged limbs. Now the leaves are coming out. I'm curious to find out how my interference will affect the harvest and whether or not I handled the damaged limbs in the best way. The limbs were breaking and twisting under their own weight. I cut them off at the weak point, near healthy branches, trying to leave as many healthy branches as possible. I think now that I should have cut them off a little closer to the next branch, and maybe have sacrificed a few more branches to get rid of all the damaged wood. On the other hand, I didn't want to overdo it and really shock the tree. There are a few smaller dead branches out of reach. They will just have to wait until I get an orchard ladder. I'm looking forward to watching how the tree does! I will tackle the other trees when I can, but just to remove the dead wood, since spring has finally sprung.
In other news, we planted 6 sugar maples, one red maple, four different lilacs, and several other flowering trees. I'm still hoping to get some fruit trees in the ground this year.
Amy
Said I: “Heck - I haven’t pruned for weeks!” “But if I want things ship-shape for next summer - I’d best get back at it!”
Answered Greg: – “Or as I call it the time when I cut off all the possibilities for fruit this year. One day I will understand this pruning to increase production.”
In fact, it looks like a good time to bring this subject thread back! Just in time for Spring of O-8!
I think I’ve concluded, if not alluded that - That's why I’m trying to get my pruning started (if only further along) earlier every year. My problem is simply too may trees 
With a very young tree, aged 1 to 7 years, winter pruning would likely be best. They don’t have all that much energy stored and guiding their growth, if not stimulating it by late winter pruning and avoiding any possible winter dieback seems reasonable.
But for the rest of those apples, pears, and plums (though I haven’t read the research), the earlier the better!
I did some corrective pruning for some younger friends who thought it best to let their trees (a good size orchard) grow free for 3 years before training them. Well, that doesn’t work on kids, or trees - and what a waste.
Instead of strong crotches and well placed scaffold limbs, the few that had naturally developed were 6 or 7 feet off the ground and too high to work with or in. The unfortunate solution was to remove that healthy upper growth down to where it should have begun, thus removing up to 50% of some trees and leaving others with large lop-sided branches. As we discussed the problem they soon realized it’s far more important to prune early than wait.
Though some trees arrive with a good assortment of branches - most don’t. If you’re growing a newly grafted tree from the rootstock up, you must decide where its limbs will begin. And if you’ve come home with a plastic root-wrapped $8.99 Weekend Special, it will likely need a serious cut.
The good one (generally arriving by UPS from a well known catalog nursery): Headed at the end of its first year, it likely has 4 or 5 well spaced branches. In that case, all you need to do is protect it and allow them to grow. If you simply prune anything resembling a ‘sucker’ coming from below the ‘whirl’ of upper branches, then head, or snip the tip bud of the most aggressive of those upper branches to the level of the others, you’re likely set for the season.
The newly grafted tree: after one year of growth (occasionally it takes a second year to reach the necessary height), you should have one straight ‘shoot’ with a terminal bud at the top. When dormant, decide at what level you want the highest branch on the tree and prune it just above that bud. The buds below will also become branches.
The Weekend Special: Usually a two, or even three year old tree, with only a couple branches and a weak crotch (easily split by an eventual load), you’re going to do some major surgery. Deciding can be relatively easy; removing perhaps half the ‘tree’ is more difficult. But apply the same strategy as above; with the most upright ‘branch’ either becoming the trunk or removing stock down to the main trunk; decide where you want your highest limb to be - Remove everything above that, along with any aggressive ‘side shoots,’ plant and protect it. If any ‘one shoot’ gets a lot larger/longer than the other ‘branches’ trying to form, you may pinch it’s terminal bud (top) out, allowing the others to catch up. But do this fairly late in the season if at all.
-- That bit of information would have ‘added’ years to my friend’s trees! Instead, we removed years~ The ‘good part’ is that the substantial energy stored in their established root system should push all kinds of new growth. The bad part is once again waiting for it!
Viron,
After reading your last post here, I decided to go out and correct my complete orchard. It is done and looks pretty good. The only part you left out is that my wife says I have to stay outside in the doghouse cause I ruined the orchard. Do you think I will get fruit before I tire of the dog food?
Actually, getting a tree off to a great start is very important. Many people want fruit next year and fear making the cuts that will increase the yield 2 - 3 years down the road.
Greg
Thanks for telling me that Greg; makes my late-night post feel worthwhile [actually, our clock here's an hour ahead - guess we're ready for Spring!] - and I suspect you’ll (eventually) have a better orchard because of it! It was sad to make the “big cuts” necessary to bring my friend’s trees back into shape - but they took it well.
Part of establishing nearly 125 acres of land; they’ve dug a massive pond, built a magnificent ‘old fashioned’ barn, helped build the new house and had two kids in the last three years! They’d also protected (with tall strong fencing) those young trees very well - and they raise goats! They, too, had gotten used to their less than ideally shaped fruit tress.
But like I said; there’s all kinds of energy stored in those roots and next year they should have plenty of new limbs to aim and train. You too! But that’s a long time on a dog food diet! That’s the main reason my wife can’t/won’t watch me prune our trees, I’m too brutal (the second is we'd never make the same cuts.)! That was also a theme as I corrected the orchard of our friends; while everyone appeared fixated on twigs and spindly shoots, I focused on trunks and structure. But maybe I can’t see an Orchard for the trees (good work)
Funny, I’d have assumed something like 45 degrees would have been the correct angle to spread a limb. But as I just stood surveying the orchard, if my most successful trees - 60 degrees matched up nearly every time! That’s the scaffold limbs angle coming away from the trunk.
Rung by metal fence posts, as fence / wire supports, I’m also able to tie over young limbs to whatever angle looks best; and I’d have sworn it was more toward horizontal than 60 degrees. Playing more with this protractor, I’d have guessed spreading them to 45 degrees is what I’d originally aimed for? --Though I’d never ‘measured’ the actual angle.
I have learned that if you spread them too horizontal they tend not to extend but send up shoots off their tops, generally sapping the limb and not amounting to much. Too little and you’re not ‘stressing’ the tree enough to aid fruit production and they’ll continue to shoot for the sky. But at the ‘perfect’ angle (apparently 60 degrees) they’ll develop the same ‘whirl’ of branches near their tip as did the main trunk, and those will become wonderful fruit-bearing branches.
Good question, or observation; I guess I’ll have to add the kid's protractor to my orchard tools!
Just an ‘update’ on this years pruning {09}. I began ‘early’ again this fall, shaking or knocking leaves off my first apple trees then moving directly into a fig ...and persimmons. As I’ve been looking for and taking on some paid pruning jobs {anyone in Washington or Yamhill Counties interested in pruning services, let me know!} - this year; in anticipation, I got the jump on my orchard. I’m glad I did! The heavy snow, totaling 30 inches broke a major limb off my Burbank Red Ace plum - because I hadn’t pruned it yet. The majority of trees were finished, had less ‘leggy surface area’ and weathered the snow just fine.
Did-up a friends trees; those first mentioned on this thread. Her trees have become like my own and now a pleasure to work among. She’s actually one of my job references, so I like to keep them looking good! Come to find another friend up the street (in the stately house) has a Tri-grafted tree! This fall it had a magnificent crop of Gravenstein’s, along with its Red and Yellow Delicious! Delicious! As it’s across from the school - me and the kids felt free to snatch apples ‘at will!’ I’m considering an offer to the High School’s Ag class to give them a lesson in pruning as the tree’s now under control; in these economic times bringing fruit trees into production seems a worthwhile skill & investment!
I suspect I’ve covered ‘Training’ in here somewhere...? But it’s also fun, while pruning a tree, to realize you can ‘fill in a hole’ and/or establish new limbs in the process! After doing up (another) friends old Red Del. Tree (actually one of my favorite apples), she asked "What's going on inside it"..? Dragging brush (I do that too), she pointed to a couple of large ‘limbs’ I’d tied-on inside its canopy. I had to smile, it did look weird; but the tree had some ‘beautiful’ up-right, 4 - 5 year old ‘shoots’ I’d bent over to form new scaffold limbs! With open space on a couple sides, and not wanting to waste all that potential - I laid them over and weighted them down, using the largest and heaviest pieces of debris. I explained that ‘next year’ they can be removed and she’ll have two new limbs! “You really do know what you’re doing” she proclaimed! Felt good, for years I’ve just considered such activity simply my personal indulgence.
In a younger (12 year) orchard I salvaged the trees from an ‘over-enthusiastic’ pruner... tying over prime one-year shoots to branches below, or weighting them down with chunks of wood to fill in open areas. Even took some photos! (W/film...)
While working inside those ‘open’ trees I described how easy it would be and how well it would likely work to ‘bark-graft’ some scions of ‘anything you’ve ever wanted’ to the sun exposed limbs. So that’s the plan - to fill in the trees ‘missing limbs.’ Fun & exciting!
So, other than me doing my thing, I thought I’d bring this thread back to the forefront - because It’s Time to Prune 
If you have an old 'Standard' full sized apple tree, like King, it is probably best to prune in summer, when the spring flush of growth is over, say around 4th of July weekend. Summer pruning is more dwarfing. It is a lot harder to see what your'e doing, so a preliminary winter thinning of the crown to allow ladder sets may also be needed. Winter pruning can stimulate the old Standard trees too much, especially the high vigor triploids lke Mutsu and King.
For personal comfort, I also prefer late winter pruning, but it is a tool to control vigor, and short of having the trees on size control rootstocks, summer pruning really helps.
Also, with some stone fruit, the larger pruning cuts before a wet spring can act as entry ways for brown rot and other fungi.
Here’s where I’ll be ‘Tomorrow’:
Get hands-on experience pruning a variety of fruit trees. There will be a variety of fruit trees, young and old, including restoration cases. There will be an opportunity for everyone to get hands on experience. This class will be held outdoors. Please dress appropriately, including the possibility of a little rain. Classes offered by the Yamhill County Master Gardeners and OSU Extension.
Tools: Please bring your own pruning tools. Cleaning supplies will be provided to reduce the possibility of contamination of tools. If you don’t have all of the necessary tools there will be some extras available.
The location is Easter Farms and a neighboring farm in Dayton between Hwy 18 and Hwy 99W in Dayton. 4570 SE Lafayette HWY Dayton, OR. Viron Fessler will be the instructor. Viron is a longtime Home Orchard Society (HOS) member and active on the forum. He was a two term board member of the local (Yamhill Co.) Luelling Memorial Chapter of the HOS before its consolidation into the main organization.
Cost for this class is $15 for the general public, $10.00 for certified Master Gardeners. This class qualifies for recertification credit for Master Gardeners. To register online, please go to the following URL http://extension.oregonstate.edu/yamhil ... ng-classes To register in person, please visit the OSU Yamhill County Extension office at 2050 NE Lafayette Ave, McMinnville, OR. For more information, contact Randy Williamson at yamhillmg@oregonstate.edu
As of yesterday, it appears we’ve got a full class! Guess I can finally put some of this talk to work ... hope the rain gives a respite
I had a great time leading the pruning demonstration for the Yamhill County Master Gardeners today, south of Lafayette, Oregon. We began with an overview of tools then eased into a well-kept 5 year orchard - whose trees closely resembled my own, some 25 years older. The obvious difference being ‘dwarfed’ trees grown on a clay hill farm vs. those on the bottom land of a onetime dairy with topsoil 10 feet deep! They were a joy to work with.
As expected, the Master Gardeners were good. It’s a treat working with people fully aware of the basics, if not a wee bit more. The weather was fine, a brief mist before the program and dry thereafter, couldn’t have asked for more this time of year.
As I described my association with the Home Orchard Society I suggested anyone with follow-up questions post them here. I also invited them to our upcoming grafting classes and propagation (scion exchange) fair - back on the West side
After working over a Granny Smith apple, Bartlett pear and part of a Italian plum, several of us had to be ordered to the next event: rejuvenation of an old orchard. Having pre-toured the site, I left my pruning gear behind - everyone realized why when we got there. The home is the tenth oldest in Yamhill County, a one-time boarding house for travelers having ridden up from Portland or Salem on the Yamhill River. Magnificent!
I gauged the trees, around 12, at least 100 years old, and after recalling a recent description of the government’s land grant requirement that every homestead must include fruit trees to qualify -- suggested they were likely nearer 150! The owner for the past 50 years assured us they were ‘old’ when he got the place, and last pruned 20 years ago. But they looked good for their age, apparently once well cared for, they were balanced and strong, if too overgrown to take on in an afternoon!
The owner pointed across the Lafayette Highway to the largest pear tree I’ve ever seen - must have been 90 feet, competing with large leaf maples and ancient oak trees. He said it gave off winter pears but could only be picked from a helicopter! I suggested he have the varieties identified and if there was anything outstanding it could be propagated. I also suspected most were hollowed out by rot, but followed up with the fact apple trees can live a long long time like that. Their growth had reached equilibrium, very little shoot growth, but all producing useable fruit.
So - if anyone one finds our site and forum, and have any questions regarding pruning fruit trees, fruit trees in general - or events - just ask. And, it was a pleasure to be surrounded by kindred spirits!
Viron, I have read through this entire thread and really enjoyed reading about your pruning adventures. I'm hoping you can throw a little advice my way.
I have an apple orchard of 53 trees (28 varieties) here where I live in southern Ohio. The first dozen I planted in 2006 were from a local tree nursery. This was before I knew anything about pruning, different apple varieties, etc. They were made up of Red Delicious, Golden Delicious, Jonagold and Granny Smith. Almost without exception, they were pruning nightmares, horrible limb crotch angles, etc. Of course, I didn't realize this at the time. Well, I try not to start a hobby without a strong attempt at doing it right, so over time I've learned a good bit about pruning and care of apple trees, and after that, I planted a bunch more also, and I'm now up to 53. After the initial dozen trees from the local nursery, ALL of the trees I've planted have been bareroot trees (combination of whips and feathered) from various reputable nurseries on this side of the U.S.
I have now gotten my first apples from approximately 35% of the trees, and should be getting first fruit from all but a few of the rest this year, if the presence of fruit buds are any indicator.
I have some friends on-line who have larger orchards and much more experience than I and they have helped me along a lot with advice. Over the last few years I feel like I have learned a little more about pruning each year, until now there is really just one last area that I still feel uncomfortable/uncertain about. That question is, what to do with "main limbs" growing horizontally OFF of the "scaffold" limbs. My scaffold limbs are established, and I already cut off everything that grows straight up, straight down, back towards the tree or is rubbing against another limb. How do I determine which of those "secondary limbs" - that's what I call them - get to stay and which get to go? It's raining outside right now or I'd go take a picture and post it for you. I'll try to do that a little later. Is there a main "rule" about how to prune those limbs? Or, should I just leave them as long as they're not shading out other limbs? Now, keep in mind, I'm not talking about twigs or fruit bud shoots, here, I'm talking about LIMBS, some of which are 2 years old now.
Any thoughts?
Joshua
Ohio
Joshua (thanks for the compliment), wish you’d have been at the pruning seminar last weekend, working among the trees, that was a collective question among the participants.
I like to balance the main scaffold's (usually 4 with an open vase structure), not letting any one or two become dominant. I also look for symmetry, keeping in mind the weight of an eventual fruit (or snow) load and how far it will be from the main trunk – and all the torque put on that ‘one limb.’ To keep them balanced, I often defer to the smaller of the two, with the understanding ‘that’s’ a limb I intend to keep. Some smaller limbs will eventually be shaded out, thus removed in time.
If they’re not shading another limb, and your trees are young, I’d leave them. Let them feed the tree, they can always be removed. ‘Fine pruning,’ is the last work I do on a tree. It’s (to me) a combination of thinning and heading cuts on the outer-most fruit producing edges of the tree.
I’ll take the limbs in turn and wiggle them, watching to see all that’s attached to each. Rarely are they balanced, and one will usually ‘jump out’ as being too long, spindly, or just ‘out of place’ - take off the longest extension back to either a stem headed in a better direction or to the larger branch.
From your description, it sounds like you’ve got it! At this stage don’t be too worried about leaving too much. Many feel that anything beyond ‘perfection’ needs removed. My experience is less vigorous shoots, especially growing ‘sideways,’ are not going to sap or alter the base structure of the tree, and often times they’ll bear fruit.
Viron, thanks for your reply. One reason this area is tricky for me is because I am a "hands-on", visual learner. It's not hard for me to figure out how to cut everything that goes straight down, straight, up, in towards the trunk, etc., but this area is a little more "nuanced". It stopped raining and I was able to get out and take a few pics this morning.
The yellow hash marks I have drawn in the photos are on the main scaffold limbs I am using as an example. The red hash marks I have drawn are the limbs growing OFF of the scaffold limbs. Those limbs with the red hash marks are the ones I'm asking about. Which should stay and which should go? As long as they're not shading out other limbs, should they all stay, just be cut back some when I prune this year?
By the way, most of those limbs with the red hash marks are growth strictly from the 2009 growing season. There's a few that had started in 2008, but most are from last year (2009). The soil where those trees are is pretty good and they put on a serious amount of limb growth all over the tree last year.
I look forward to your input.
Joshua
Joshua, the red hashed limbs, or secondary limbs are all potential fruit producers. They are what you want! You’re right about their age; one is at least two years old and sending out stems of its own. You definitely want those limbs; they are filling out your tree. Also, growing ‘sideways,’ they’re no threat of taking over. What they do need is ‘headed.’
Within their tip, or ‘terminal bud’ is a hormone that suppresses the growth of the buds below (or behind) it. Left alone, they’ll take off from the tip and simply extend the branch, leaving spindly limbs. You must ‘head them,’ cutting back to the length of a limb you’d like to have; heading a preferred direction and to a downward facing bud. That will stimulate fruit bud formation and ‘beef-up’ the branch and tree.
Their growth looks great! You’ve plenty to work with. Roughly, I’d say you’d be pretty safe removing half their length, and any heading straight up, as one appears to be. Anything growing straight up will command the nutrients, produce few (if any) fruit spurs and generally continue going up.
The red marked limbs are what you want – they’re your new tree! Go easy on them! Likely leaving most, just shorten them and they’ll begin to ‘fan out,’ producing a combination of fruit spurs and the necessary new growth to sustain the tree.
OK - further business regarding yesterday’s pruning demonstration for the Yamhill County Master Gardeners near Grand Island. Though I didn’t re-read my post (several up) regarding the same program from last year, I’m still open to questions from those in attendance, or any of our regular readers.
I’d received a nice compliment from the fellow who arranged this event yesterday (who also posts here) as he described receiving calls soon after last years event to have me back again ‘this year.’ He also described this years class quickly reaching their 20 person limit. When asked if anyone had taken the class last year, I believe only one person raised their hand - which basically allowed me to repeat myself
After introducing and comparing tools, we ventured into the neighboring commercial orchards. The first was too large and well established for me to mess with, I’d only brought my 8 foot orchard ladder! The next block were cherries, pruned for mechanical harvest. We were able to discuss their up-right growth habit and point out where a ‘home orchardist’ would likely make some major cuts. We also discussed wounds and pruning techniques.
Our best candidate's for a pruning demonstration were a massive commercial block of espaliered apples, between heavy posts and trained to wires, approximately 15 years old. That didn’t allow me to circle a tree, or demonstrate my favorite style of ‘vase,’ or open center pruning - but they were apples, with growth habits we’re all familiar with. Though we lacked a variety of fruiting trees, most pruning techniques are applicable to ‘most’ fruit trees; with one exception being figs. And though I mixed myself up delivering this bit of information, let me set it straight: - Prune the latest blooming trees first - and the first trees to bloom last!
And again, as far as ‘times to prune in Oregon (Willamette Valley);’ if I had a small orchard of 3 or 4 fruit trees, I’d wait until mid to late February. If I had lots of trees, I’d begin pruning the apples, pears, quince and European prunes as I harvested them. I’ve never witnessed winter-kill or tip dieback on those trees, which is the reason most often stated when ‘waiting’ for the worst of winter to pass before pruning. Holding off on cherries, Asian plums and peaches would be as much to lessen the opportunity of pathogens getting into the open wounds as fear of dieback in the Willamette Valley.
- OK, I’ll shut up - but it would be great to see more of my fellow Yamhillian’s at our Home Orchard Society classes, scion exchange, picnics, tours and All About Fruit Show!
- And before I forget; here’s the commercial pruning tools and link I’d described yesterday: - Lowell’s Tools - http://www.lowellstools.com/ (ma & pa outfit) - my favorite loppers being - Hickok, either 28 or 32 inch; hand pruners being – ‘ARS-120’ or - ARS V-8's -- and if you’ve read this far - search through the many pages of topics on this forum and open up links I’m sure will be of interest to you - if you have a question - ask it! Otherwise, stay dry
[quote="Viron":jbj39eqe]And again, as far as - times to prune in Oregon (Willamette Valley); - if I had a small orchard of 3 or 4 fruit trees, I'd wait until mid to late February. [/quote:jbj39eqe]
Thank you!
[quote="Viron":jbj39eqe] - if you have a question - ask it! Otherwise, stay dry[/quote:jbj39eqe]
What is the largest diameter trunk that can still be pruned to promote branching for an open center?
Dave
“What is the largest diameter trunk that can still be pruned to promote branching for an open center?”
Dave,
There are ‘latent buds’ under the bark of every apple (if not every) tree. If you want to convert a ‘central leader’ to an ‘open vase’ tree you’d have to consider the loss of energy collecting ‘tree’ that you’d be removing. If the new, and whatever growth left, was not enough to feed the root system - the roots would die.
If you’re starting your ‘open center’ three feet up, there’d likely be very few existing branches below. The ‘latent buds’ would sprout around the wound and you could train them well after one season’s growth. I would not sacrifice more than two-fifths of the tree above that cut!
I’d described at the Saturday event, friends, with very poorly shaped 3 year old fruit trees that I recommended (and they allowed) be cut nearly in half - forcing future growth into re-forming scaffold limbs. But we were only looking at an inch and a half diameter cuts.
Your question leaves me with so much speculation I can hardly give an answer beyond the ‘logic’ I’ve tried to describe A 2.5 to 3 inch cut would recover well - but balancing the inevitable root-loss for a ‘change in structure’ may not be worth the trade...
Early pruning & training is soooo important … and usually the years that are neglected, as owners feel they’ll - just let it grow for a few years then prune it when it starts looking more like it should. And, the proportionately ‘big cuts’ necessary to correct a poorly branched or shaped tree are beyond most folks comfort level. There’s definitely a skill to making the ‘Big Cuts’ - short of ‘topping’ a fine specimen...
[quote="Viron":sj1v3yye]Your question leaves me with so much speculation I can hardly give an answer beyond the ‘logic’ I’ve tried to describe [/quote:sj1v3yye]
Your sharing of that logic is a gift. Extra learning! Thank you.
[quote="Viron":sj1v3yye] There are ‘latent buds’ under the bark of every apple (if not every) tree. If you want to convert a ‘central leader’ to an ‘open vase’ tree you’d have to consider the loss of energy collecting ‘tree’ that you’d be removing. If the new and whatever growth left was not enough to feed the root system - roots would die. ...
I’d described at the Saturday event, friends, with very poorly shaped 3 year old fruit trees that I recommended (and they allowed) be cut nearly in half - forcing future growth into re-forming scaffold limbs. But we were only looking at an inch and a half diameter cuts....
A 2.5 to 3 inch cut would recover well - but balancing the inevitable root-loss for a ]change in structure’ may not be worth the trade...
[/quote:sj1v3yye]
Very enlightening. Thank you. Now you have stimulated another, related question. I've got a young tree that is maybe 3/4" diameter down low, with lots of little branches started at all heights. To convert this to open leader, how low can it be cut and still leave enough growth to feed the roots come the growing season? Would you determine this in terms of percentage of tree, or number of branches, or...?
Viron,
I have a three year old orchard with about 40 trees mostly semi dwarf. I have a question about pruning. I get the whorl placement about every 18-24 " . Where I am struggling is how and when to prune branches back ...how many off shoot branches should be left off the main branches and how long...
Trees are about 8-10 foot high and two established whorls.
Looking for some advise....
Orchard is in Umatilla County, Oregon
Thanks in advance
dan or
Dan, if you’re leaving the ‘whorls’ you’re going for central leaders(?). 8-10 feet is some pretty good growth in only three years! Have you been pruning them or are they leggy?
I’d suggest pruning for balance or symmetry. When I’ve an aggressive limb I’ll shorten it (to a downward facing bud) and tie or spread (bend) it to slow the nutrient flow. With less aggressive limbs I may only remove their terminal bud, allowing the limb to ‘beef up’ some as it produces side shoots and fruit spurs.
With a central leader, ‘branches’ will basically remain just that, ‘branches’ - emanating laterally at various levels from the trunk. When I think of ‘limbs’ I envision 3, 4 or 5 ‘scaffold limbs’ coming up and off a main trunk (open vase). You can have a blend of the two, modified leaders and such, but you can’t have both.
As for the ‘offshoot branches,’ that’s where the fruit happens. One of the neatest tricks of ‘summer pruning’ is the fact you can force multiple branching within one season. Every time they’re snipped and forced to branch - you end up with more fruit spurs. But as I described in the pruning class, too much of a thicket means poor air circulation and lots of thinning. And as much as we all want a decent crop, most years I spend hours (and hours) thinning! Some of that thinning can be alleviated by ‘thinning’ your limbs right now. - my favorite description of a well thinned/pruned tree is the ability to throw a cat through it! Though I wouldn’t advise it -- that leaves a fair amount of room between limbs, spurs, twigs, leaves and scaffolds!
And when you’re looking at those secondary limbs and stems, if they’re growing anywhere near level, they’ll not ‘sap’ the tree or turn into monsters; most are harmless. We had a good discussion on what to leave. Those droopy twiggy stems will likely terminate with a fruit spur - perfect! But if they’re coming more from the top of a limb than its side, or bottom, just shorten or remove them; there’s no reason to let them sap the branch, and what it doesn’t take will be used elsewhere.
Dave, you’re welcome. A young tree is likely resilient enough to take more loss. Its energy is basically in the root system and would likely be eager to push enough new growth to minimize root loss. And, it wouldn’t take ‘that much’ new growth to feed the roots - just don’t bend, spread or tip-pinch that new growth -- feed, mulch, water and protect it.
How low do you want your upper-most branches? If you want to ‘step into’ the tree, I’d consider two feet above the ground. A better location would be right above a ‘whole’ of limbs nearest the point you’d like it to open up. Just envision the multiple sprouts shooting up from where you make the cut becoming semi-trunks, gently spreading away from each other and eventually carrying the load of the tree.
Close on the heels of pruning is training, of which we covered a bit at the pruning demonstration mentioned above - but first things first in your case.
[quote="Viron":vgtppbpt]Dan, if you’re leaving the ‘whorls’ you’re going for central leaders(?). 8-10 feet is some pretty good growth in only three years! Have you been pruning them or are they leggy?
I have pruned the trees each year and you are correct I am going for a central leader on every tree except peaches and apricots.
I’d suggest pruning for balance or symmetry. When I’ve an aggressive limb I’ll shorten it (to a downward facing bud) and tie or spread (bend) it to slow the nutrient flow. With less aggressive limbs I may only remove their terminal bud, allowing the limb to ‘beef up’ some as it produces side shoots and fruit spurs.
Did a bunch of end of branch pruning last year as well as cutting the central leader to promote whorls.
With a central leader, ‘branches’ will basically remain just that, ‘branches’ - emanating laterally at various levels from the trunk. When I think of ‘limbs’ I envision 3, 4 or 5 ‘scaffold limbs’ coming up and off a main trunk (open vase). You can have a blend of the two, modified leaders and such, but you can’t have both.
I am confused by this? I have branches growing out of the main trunk I call them whorls. Off the main branches are scaffold limbs? My thinking is that the main branches should be pruned to promote side limbs.??
As for the ‘offshoot branches,’ that’s where the fruit happens. One of the neatest tricks of ‘summer pruning’ is the fact you can force multiple branching within one season. Every time they’re snipped and forced to branch - you end up with more fruit spurs. But as I described in the pruning class, too much of a thicket means poor air circulation and lots of thinning. And as much as we all want a decent crop, most years I spend hours (and hours) thinning! Some of that thinning can be alleviated by ‘thinning’ your limbs right now. - my favorite description of a well thinned/pruned tree is the ability to throw a cat through it! Though I wouldn’t advise it -- that leaves a fair amount of room between limbs, spurs, twigs, leaves and scaffolds!
This is what I am shooting for = lots of air circulation.
And when you’re looking at those secondary limbs and stems, if they’re growing anywhere near level, they’ll not ‘sap’ the tree or turn into monsters; most are harmless. We had a good discussion on what to leave. Those droopy twiggy stems will likely terminate with a fruit spur - perfect! But if they’re coming more from the top of a limb than its side, or bottom, just shorten or remove them; there’s no reason to let them sap the branch, and what it doesn’t take will be used elsewhere.[/quote:vgtppbpt]
All upward or downward shoots have / will be pruned.
Let's see if I have this .... whorls are a good thing for a central leader system.... main branches from the whorls should be pruned back to promote side branching and to strengthen the main branch. Up and down growth is pruned off and side limbs of the main branches are pruned back to promote fruiting spurs?
Are there trees at the HOS Arboretum that would be good models to observe?
Some of the trees are going into their fourth year...
Thanks for the continuing advise
dan or
Dan,
-- With a central leader, ‘branches’ will basically remain just that, ‘branches’ - emanating laterally at various levels from the trunk. When I think of ‘limbs’ I envision 3, 4 or 5 ‘scaffold limbs’ coming up and off a main trunk (open vase). You can have a blend of the two, modified leaders and such, but you can’t have both.
“I am confused by this? I have branches growing out of the main trunk I call them whorls. Off the main branches are scaffold limbs? My thinking is that the main branches should be pruned to promote side limbs.??”
I envision the central leader form like that of a fir tree; with near level limbs growing out and away from the trunk in ‘whorls.’ I prune for ‘open vase’ trees, where branches spread up and away from the trunk at approximately sixty degree angles, forming the entire canopy as they branch into ever smaller limbs and stems. You have more, but smaller ‘scaffold limbs,’ that’s all - I have fewer, but larger scaffold limbs. And, “the main branches should be pruned to promote side limbs.”
“Let's see if I have this .... whorls are a good thing for a central leader system.... main branches from the whorls should be pruned back to promote side branching and to strengthen the main branch. Up and down growth is pruned off and side limbs of the main branches are pruned back to promote fruiting spurs?” - Yes, for a Central Leader trained fruit tree.
"Are there trees at the HOS Arboretum that would be good models to observe?" - I believe so; in fact one ‘stand alone’ tree near the center I was turned loose on years ago and I believe it’s vase pruned...
Hey guys - here's an opportunity: Pruning Workshop
Saturday, February 5, 2011 - 9:00 AM at the HOS Arboretum
Registration is through Clackamas Community College. Pre-registration is preferred, but last minute registrations will be accepted at the gate. More information soon...
Check out the rest of the lineup: http://www.homeorchardsociety.org/events/
Hi Y'all,
I surfed in here this evening, joined, read four years worth of "Time to Prune! with host Viron" and easily quadrupled my knowledge of the subject - yes, I'm that new to Apple Orchardry.
And I have a pretty big project: About a dozen full sized apple trees that the (now 84 year old) property owner says were there before he was born on the place. Yeah, they're big. And oh yeah, they are ugly too! One tree, the old man says, once had three truck loads of apples on it. He believes it is a King, and that in his memory, it's never been pruned, except by our 80 mile an hour wind storms... some of the trees are hollow, etc, it's crazy limbs all over the place.
But I'm like Viron - I'm at my best when I'm pruning, I so love it, the hours fly by - it is so cool to know I am not alone with this enjoyment. Maybe for me it's having turned 50, but I like the peacefulness and yet there is plenty to pay attention to with every cut, even if it's just the huckleberries and the rhodies here on my own brushy coastal acreage near Bandon by the Sea. When I tell people from elsewhere that there were are places on my property "so thick I had never been there" they hardly believe it but that's really the way stuff grows here on the coast - thick. Over the last 8 years here I've made fast friends with my pruners and loppers (and worn out a few of each plus a few chain saw teeth) so now it's not so bad. Less to chop, less to lop, and oh yeah, it was fun while it lasted.
So I'm turning to this new project - a 100 plus year old coastal orchard, and now to my first question: Is there a place I could post a few "pre-op" photos? Maybe folks would say "Oh, those are way too far gone... like Viron's Granpaw's, or maybe folks would say these are do-oable. While I'm a lopin' fool... the apples I'm brand new to. I know I can't hurt these trees, and here's question number two: Are they a waste of time?
Hey, if you like pruning like I do, well I think that's really cool.
Bob Frazier, Bandon Oregon
Bob - ya made my day! So there’s two of us! First, do post the photos; I wish I could give you the best procedure for doing that - maybe our far more technically talented web-master, Steven might send you some suggestions on that... I’m told our server has plenty of space and a picture’s still worth a thousand words. Plus, I’d just love to see a Coastal Orchard. I’m partial to the Coast, my family nearly moved there when I was young (wish they had) and I’ve got close kin on the northern coast. But – they’ve had a heckofa time with fruit trees. My inland uncle describes the coastal residents as ‘fruit starved,’ and every time he visits he carts over boxes of fresh fruit and vegetables - as he returns with sea food & Chinook!
Do ya know what you’ve got as far as varieties (or, “cultivars”)? We’ve got a great ID guy - and the age of the orchard helps ID them as well. [had a laugh at the pruning seminar when I’d make a special effort to accurately describe horticultural terms ‘even though the Master Gardeners knew them, they told me not to bother - as I described how I’ve become accustomed to being ‘politely corrected’ here on the forum - and that I’ve tried to develop a habit of using the ‘proper terms’ when addressing the public - they scoffed!] Anyway, I’m sitting here with a near half inch diameter bare patch of skin on my right middle pruning finger from today’s work in the trees. First sunshine I’ve seen in - months - so I went nuts! But even the droning airplanes sounded good, and the Redwing blackbird’s back! I really tore into my oldest fig tree, a Desert King. Every time I feel I’ve got those things figured out - I try something knew, something for which I’ll have to keep an eye on this summer to find out if it works! Had a friend suggest I hold off on the figs for a month, incase we have some wood damaging cold weather. The way I figured is since I’m basically thinning and heading back some lengthy shoots, and not ‘aiming them’ toward a downward or outward facing bud - dieback wouldn’t matter. I’ll see.
I give you all kinds of credit for having read, what, four pages..? Did I mention how much enjoyment I’ve had pruning my Japanese Lace-leaf maple..? You’d mentioned your specimen shrubs and it reminded me of the detail you can get with one of these maples. Well, I haven’t touched it yet this year, but today I was nearly dancing between an Asian plum, two varieties (4 trees) of figs, fuzzy kiwi and three apple trees. It truly is a blast, sculpting life! I’d done some crazy grafting on that Asian plum in which I’d wrapped a trunk shoot up and over the apex of the scaffold limbs, grafting it to trunk as it passed over. Everything’s still tied in place - and it’s gorgeous! I’ll likely get into the pears tomorrow.
I’d suggest the key to those big trees is taking your time - you can really take them out of balance by doing it all at once. And, be careful removing moss so you don’t allow the limb tops to be sunburned - that’s if you get enough sun to burn down there I’d love to take on some older trees now that I’m far more experienced. What truly amazes me is how, after all those years ‘latent’ buds are still ready to sprout when they’re cut near the trunks. What I’d be looking at is where you’d like to establish some replacement limbs. Granted, you need sun to hit any area you’re looking to stimulate, but given that, and some cuts that would stimulate those latent buds, you’d have your choice of some lengthy one-year shoots to gradually train into limbs.
Working in a local orchard three years ago I was among some - 60 year old apple and pear trees. I’d been hired by the daughter who was living on her parent’s place. One day her father drove into the orchard with his truck to watch me work. I climbed down to talk and he said, with a tear in his eye, “Those trees haven’t looked that good since my wife died!” “She’s the one who took care of them.” He asked which trees she’d asked me to do, I pointed them out and he said, “Do em all!” - so I tore into their prune, cherry, figs and crabapples as well. Last year I asked her if she’d allow me to spend some time re-establishing limbs on the old apples. “Sure!” - she actually thinks I’m fairly clever cause the first year I’d talked her into’ letting me graft up ten trees that, when finished, were delivered to her sister in Eastern Oregon, who now has her own set of ‘childhood fruit trees!’ - so I tied over some ‘water sprouts’ on a couple of apple trees and am excited about training them into replacement limbs in a few weeks.
That first year in their orchard was really something though! I’d told them I could haul away the debris - but that there was going to be a lot of it. On the edge of town, with around two acres, her husband said to just leave it and he’d burn it. Sure wish I’d have taken a ‘before & after’ photo of it. I was removing 15 year old ‘trees within trees,’ along with everything else that didn’t need to be there - and when I was finally done it looked like a small atomic bomb had hit - likely 3 feet of debris out to the drip line under each tree. And, I’d broken all the rules - like standing on the tip top of a ladder; climbing a long twisted ladder lodged against wood I actually removed (after climbing into the tree); and the ol ‘chainsaw in the tree’ (with me) law! But I’d done it before. The good thing about those big cuts and the major rejuvenating is that it’s a one time job, then it’s basically watershoots, tip pruning and thinning - along with rejuvenation, if you’re so inclined.
Man! and there I went again. Yes, I love to prune - and you’ve come to the right place. Post those pictures onto the end of this and we’ll go from there ~
Wow wow wow. There sure is a lot to pruning old trees. Today I thought I was doing great, oh yeah!
Then I found the Coos County Extension Service pamphlet on how to prune old trees in my mailbox when I got back home. We'll just say it was a day late for those trees.
They say to bring the top down first, and do so over a four year period. Not what I did! I basically detached the dead and shady out of the bottom, cut the crossed up stuff, whacked the wrong direction stuff, detached the down hangers, sliced the straight ups, and lopped the limbs the deer would for sure get. Oops!
And, they say removing water sprouts this time of year promises them that they'll grow back later. Ah shucks, I may have to live in some of these trees this summer!
Well there sure is a lot of ways to prune trees wrong - at least it looks like I've already learned most of them.
First: I took before and after photos on a couple of the apple trees - I'll see about starting a thread named "Before and After Pruning Photos", sort of to give back for Viron's multi year multi page monster effort here at "Time to Prune!"
Second, I need either a bigger ladder or some longer arms. Sheesh! Seriously, there are long tools besides a boom truck, right? How do you get your tall limbs down?
Third, I found a great big horse shoe that someone hung on a limb a looong time ago... and it was barely showing, and the old gent who owns the property said they used to shoe the logging horses right there when he was a kid, but he hadn't ever noticed it due to all the dead branches and moss hiding it.
Fourth: If trees could talk - oh boy.
Fifth, who knew those sad looking little limbs were called spurs! 
" title="Embarassed" /> I didn't.... now a few are called trimmings. Oops! Ok not all of them, since I can't even reach the top half of the trees on my ladder... and I did short trees today. Told you all I knew nothing about apples!
Sixth, Viron, there are so many trees on the property that I keep getting the varieties and particulars straight, so I'll have to put off answering about the specifics for awhile. I do know I "molacked" (molested and attacked) two apple trees today that were about 50 year old semi dwarfs, and yep, they are easier than the full size ones I have in front of me. I de-suckered a huge pear tree of some sort, and I trimmed up a fig that was oh so sad due to a grape vine entanglementation/strangulation. I'll prune the prunes if I ever have time, and before it's over probably go nutz in the two English walnut trees.
And that's all I'm admitting to. Anybody use apple wood for smoking? 
" title="Wink" />
Bob Frazier
Bandon, Oregon
Here’s the link to the trees we’re talking about: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4640
Bob said: “They say to bring the top down first, and do so over a four year period. Not what I did! I basically detached the dead and shady out of the bottom, cut the crossed up stuff, whacked the wrong direction stuff, detached the down hangers, sliced the straight ups, and lopped the limbs the deer would for sure get. Oops!”
- well, it’s hard to remove the ‘top’ when the ‘bottom’s’ an impenetrable thicket! I usually cut a ‘corridor’ toward the center for both my access and a way to pull out the ‘uprights.’ I see no problem with what you've done. But, their four year time-span is in an ‘ideal world!’ It’s meant to keep the tree in balance and perhaps ‘gently expose’ the tops of long shaded limbs to gradual sunlight - but who’s got that kind of time? And if you’re doing it for anyone but yourself - most want it done (yesterday) now.
“And, they say removing water sprouts this time of year promises them that they'll grow back later.”
- that’s pretty much right, though you’ve removed a lot more than ‘water shoots.’ Whenever you’re dormant pruning, the nutrients stored in the trunk and roots will push out growth equal to what ‘was there.’ It will now be in the form of water-shoots, but instead of removing 3 or 4 inch diameter one-time ‘water shoots,’ they’ll now be 3/8’s of an inch and perfect for hand pruners - not chain saws!
Think of the damage you’d inflict on growing and fruiting leaves & spurs if you were to do this in August. Plus, within a fully leafed out and growing tree you can hardly see what you’re doing. So forget ‘theory,’ Ya did fine! I visited with my artist friend and her little Apple Gnomes yesterday; there they stand with a gazillion watershoots on each. I told her it may be time to leave some of those trees for ‘summer pruning,’ perhaps to hone my skills, but mainly to see if they can be brought into balance. By removing the solar collectors when the sap’s up we’d be diminishing the energy store in the roots and balancing the trees - as opposed to the ‘let them collect all kinds of energy - send up nothing but water suckers - store that energy - have suckers removed - then do it again! We’ll see ~
“Well there sure is a lot of ways to prune trees wrong”
That’s where I think you’re happily wrong - the worst way to prune a tree is not at all! Too many folks avoid the task, then end up with an out of control leggy brokendown thicket! No two people would prune a tree the same and I could never do one identical to myself the next day - but as long as you understand the basics, and aren’t afraid to make the cuts, you’ll likely do fine.
“I took before and after photos on a couple of the apple trees - I'll see about starting a thread named "Before and After Pruning Photos", sort of to give back for Viron's multi year multi page monster effort here at "Time to Prune!”
Very nice - thanks!
“Second, I need either a bigger ladder or some longer arms. Sheesh! Seriously, there are long tools besides a boom truck, right? How do you get your tall limbs down?”
Excellent question, try this: http://www.homeorchardsociety.org/article/36/ That’s the first thing I noticed, and actually the most dangerous - your step ladder… When you get to the outside ends of these trees you’ll need a very stable, likely 12 to 16 foot orchard ladder. Then’s when you decide how expensive and intensive you want this ‘hobby’ to get. Their stability is unbelievable, and though you can find heavy old wooden ones [/] I’d recommend an aluminum three-legged orchard ladder. I find I’m less inclined to move my heavy wooden one - so end up leaning more than I should to reach something I’d more easily have repositioned my 8 foot aluminum ...though my wooden one’s taller, and in the case the these big old trees, the only thing that would work. But, with a nice extension (pole) pruner with a ‘rope’ or cable activated cutting blade, you can do a fair amount of work from either the ground or [i]partially up a ladder - though not too high ...as they’re awkward and unstable.
“I found a great big horse shoe that someone hung on a limb a looong time ago...”
Yikes That’s something serious to consider when sawing into any fruit tree! I’ve got some nuts & bolts imbedded in one of mine, once having ‘secured’ a weak crotch with them. Just be prepared for that chainsaw to throw it’s chain at any moment - which means leaning back a bit more when sawing - and watch for sparks - and be ready to pull out instantly! Never a dull moment in a tree
“If trees could talk - oh boy” - they’d likely cuss
“who knew those sad looking little limbs were called spurs!”
Yup, they’re in there somewhere! One thing you need to remember, when you get to the “fine pruning” (something we’ve rarely discussed around here) is how to leave regenerative growth; a few ‘new buds’ poised to form replacement fruit spurs, especially in old trees. I suspect those old trees are deep within a pattern of alternate bearing; in which they’re loaded to near breaking one year - and sparse the next. So, when you begin removing, or seriously thinning their outsides, or the fruit producing portion of the tree, you’ll also be 'thinning fruit in advance' by removing long-time fruit spurs.
Some may cringe at the thought of removing any ‘potential’ fruit, but it’s a good and necessary thing in this case. 1) there’s too many old spurs to begin with. 2) you need air circulation to limit disease. 3) you need sunlight to stimulate new growth and renew spurs. ...4) you gotta make room for that flying cat
“And that's all I'm admitting to.”
Well done, and that’s what it takes ...the initiative to get up and in there! You’ll learn from your mistakes - and remember, nothing’s worse than a Topped fruit tree - other than a removed fruit tree - and that’s the fate that awaits many if no one makes the effort you have. You have likely saved their lives - and set them up for another 25 to 50 years of neglect, if not healthy and appreciated production. And though we shouldn’t have to remind each other - be careful. Consider, if you’re not using some already, some nice clear rounded safety glasses, not the old time bulky things but the ‘Kareem Jabbar’ type. And don’t lean out from your ladder, and get out of the tree when you’re tired, or at least put down the chain saw! Just circle the tree while nibbling on something with your hand pruners or loppers ...and go from there.
“Anybody use apple wood for smoking?” I’ll refrain from my first thought ~ and remind you there’s oil mixed in with your chainsaw ‘dust,’ so you’d have to do like my brother and run the wood through a table saw or chipper to avoid the oil - but you likely know that. Thanks again for sharing.
Fine Pruning - Yah, I was up and out there again today, excellent weather! - and I was thinking about my comment above about ‘fine pruning,’ as that’s where Bob seemed to have left off. What I’ve come to envision that term means is the work you do within the fruit-producing portion of a tree, as opposed to initial training, heavy pruning or ‘water sprout’ removal (be they 4 or 3/8's inches in diameter). That’s where many folks from the pruning classes I’ve led will lose it.
I recently had a woman ask me to describe the cuts I was making on her trees - as I made them - wow, first, I can’t talk that fast, and second, I don’t know if she really wanted a full description of the various experiences that led me to conclude ‘that’ was a necessary cut. Not quite boring, but somewhat convoluted. So I did, while pruning in extreme slow motion - as she quickly smiled and realized there was a lot more going on in my head than I could accurately describe - and described it as 27 years worth of doing this.
But - that doesn’t mean it’s not understandable, and the best way I’d describe the ‘fine pruning’ process is moving the same techniques used on the interior, or bulk of the tree, to the outside limbs and stems. Most folks recognize fruit spurs, and are justifiably reluctant to remove them. So they avoid doing so and end up leaving way too much material on those outside (fruit producing) limbs! And, they leave far too many buds on the stems they head (or aim to a downward facing bud). I’ve spent hours correcting such work.
By removing anything coming off the top of a limb/stem; anything growing directly off the bottom; and anything crossing another branch that is longer than the branch/stem it’s crossing may safely be removed. And always take such a ‘thinning’ cut back to the limb it came from, leaving no stubs. I’d describe ‘thinning’ as removing branching end-wood that includes new growth and fruit spurs. When, or as you remove those candidates - it magically begins to look right - even professional! And - it is right!
With regard to fruit spurs, 
- those fat multi-angled short-stem things with flower buds inside; you’re not out to remove them just because they emanate from the top or bottom of a branch/stem, but if a more complex branch in an unnecessary position includes them, you may remove them along with that excess material. Fruit spurs are not candidates for runaway growth, that’s what you don’t want, and though they may look weird hanging off the bottom or poking up from the top of a limb when the rest of the tree is pretty much devoid of such action – it’s OK - ignore them, and they will return the favor with blossoms and fruit, year after year in most cases.
The remaining stems contain growth buds; tight buds that formed where last years leaves fell off. They’re set to grow. As you’ve already removed the straight up and straight down stuff from the fruiting area; that leaves the lateral stems which will extend the width of the tree. You always want to head those back (normally to a downward facing bud). If you’ve a young tree and want some decent limb extension, take off less and leave more; if you’re at the edge of a mature tree and want to keep its size in check, you may prune back to one ‘new’ growth bud. In tight quarters I’ll generally leave only two or three, the end bud (next to the cut) facing down. Again, these growth buds are generally on one year old wood, but they can also be on two and three year old wood - but it’s best to prune back to one of them, and not to a fat-budded fruit spur.
I’ve often noticed that fruit spurs will send up a one-season ‘water sprout’ connected to them - it appears to me those feed the fruit forming on that spur - if so, and by my suspicion, I’ll leave one viable growth bud above that that spur, to allow it to send up another ‘next season.’ This is the crazy sounding meticulous stuff commercial growers would likely cringe at - as I suspect there’s no way they could afford to hire anyone to pittle around on their trees to that extent. But as Home Orchardist’s - we can - and do…
Twiggy stuff: here’s another hangup I notice with beginning pruners; they’ll become fixated on twigs. Often ignoring the bulk, or more important cuts, they’ll worry about a 12 inch drooping stem with a fat fruit bud at the end or a punny 1/16 inch diameter stem heading nowhere - Ignore them. They will not run away with the tree but may hang there and produce fruit or spurs - until you cut them off. I’ll prune a tree and begin to admire it - then have the owner question me about the ‘little’ stems poking or hanging from it. Not always fruit spurs – I’ll leave ‘un-headed’ lateral stems and occasional upright ‘water sprouts’ to shade limbs or just leaf out cause they’re doing no damage. - now if someone wants me to spend more time heading every twig - can do ~
- and that’s my best online effort at describing ‘fine pruning.’ If there are any questions - I’ll do my best to find answers that make sense. Otherwise, it’s just me again, easing out of another day in the trees
“Second, I need either a bigger ladder or some longer arms. Sheesh! Seriously, there are long tools besides a boom truck, right? How do you get your tall limbs down?”
Excellent question, try this: http://www.homeorchardsociety......rticle/36/ That’s the first thing I noticed, and actually the most dangerous - your step ladder! When you get to the outside ends of these trees you’ll need a very stable, likely 12 to 16 foot orchard ladder. Then’s when you decide how expensive and intensive you want this ‘hobby’ to get. Their stability is unbelievable, and though you can find heavy old wooden ones - I’d recommend an aluminum three-legged orchard ladder. I find I’m less inclined to move my heavy wooden one - so end up leaning more than I should to reach something I’d more easily have repositioned my 8 foot aluminum ...though my wooden one’s taller, and in the case the these big old trees, the only thing that would work. But, with a nice extension (pole) pruner with a ‘rope’ or cable activated cutting blade, you can do a fair amount of work from either the ground or partially up a ladder - though not too high ...as they’re awkward and unstable.
“Today's hunt for such a ladder should be much easier. I'd suggest an online search, or try Teufels Nursery Supply. Never mind the expense- what's a re-set collarbone worth these days? And an Aluminum Ladder should last forever”
My Mother fell out of a Cherry Tree while on a three legged ladder and actually broke her collar bone! Ever since I had regarded them as antiquated and unsafe... I'll re-examine that issue as I definitely need more height & reach. she said it was "an old rickety wooden one", and likely she had limited direction about how to position it, but it was in a level orchard.
As for the chain saw, yeah, a lot of risks involved with using one in a tree... I can at least say I understand the risks.
Any recommendations for a pole saw? Not electric or gas, just a "push pull".
More later....
Bob, my Great-uncle fell out of a cherry tree and dislocated his shoulder from a ‘two legged’ aluminum extension ladder. I use that ladder to this day and have no doubt gotten away with some stupid stunts... Hillside or not, if you can spend some time on a tripod ladder, I’d recommend it. I suspect we can fall from anything, but those four-legged step ladders have been the worse by far for me - and fortunately I stopped using them when I was still young and quick enough to land like a cat as they toppled - and I’ve only a couple of years on you ~
Regarding a pole saw, I bought a metal head with a detachable blade that fits onto any length ‘pole’ you want. It’s ok - but often time more work than it’s worth. Mine only cuts on the pull, which I’m fairly sure most do - as you’re best able to apply downward pressure when you drag it down toward you. - with sawdust wafting into your unprotected eyes below - I use mine most limbing fir trees.
Though the metal pole saw head has adjustable angles for the blade, my problem is never being able to get near the torque I can with a ‘hand saw.’ Though it’s still plenty sharp, it seems to take 3 times as long as if I were ‘right there’ with my favorite hand saw (Corona model 49). As it’s such a time waster I only use it as a last resort - when I can’t safely climb into the tree and reach the limb I want gone.
My absolute last resort is a Sears fiberglas extension bypass rope activated blade pruner - say that fast three times! Same reason for using it; when it’s just too darn dangerous to get to where I need to be, and though I’m forever working on it - my meticulous nature precludes me ‘leaving’ anything I feel shouldn’t be there - especially when others agree Its ratcheting pulley action tends to get caught on nearby branches, and working from a generally ‘upward’ angle I don’t like the ‘angled’ cut it leaves. And, it’s heavy enough that attempting to ‘fine prune’ high stuff is prohibitive. - but if I don’t bring both, I’ll wish I had ~
It's been really great following this conversation! And I have a question.
I recently bought 5 acres and a home in San Diego County in So. California. Although it has mainly avocado trees, I also have many other fruit trees including 3 apple and 3 Asian pear trees. The property and trees have been neglected for several years.
2 of the apple and 3 of the pear trees look to be more than 10 years old. They have grown nearly vertical. The central leader and scaffolding branches are difficult to tell apart. The scaffolds (approx 1.5 to 3 inches in diameter) start off from the main trunk horizontally, but turn vertical very quickly. It makes the tree look like a U with the leader in the middle. The scaffolds and the leader taper-off to long and lanky and reach as high as 25 feet.
Naturally, I’m wanting to prune to reduce the height and widen the spread. But I’m also wondering if there is still a way to spread the existing scaffold limbs. In Michael Phillips’ book The Apple Grower, he mentions a possible method. I want to make certain that I fully understand what he means before I assail these trees with my saw. On p.83, under the heading limb spreading methods, he says: "Notching the underside of a badly angled scaffold allows such a branch to heal into a better position. Chainsaw cuts are quick, but a series of three narrow saw kerfs made one-half to two-thirds of the way through leaves less of an air pocket behind the callus tissue."
My question: Is Mr. Phillips referring to a method that might be used for spreading vertically-oriented limbs so that they might correct my trees' condition? It sounds almost like a modified grafting method, but using the tree’s existing scaffold branches.
I’d really appreciate hearing your answer.
Michael
Interesting question. I’ve not read the book you’ve mentioned or tried what is described, but it appears to be a process of removing what would become the ‘compressed’ (or underside) part of the limb being spread downward. I suspect the ‘kerf cuts’ would come together at a point to match the cambium and the limb would naturally graft itself back together.
My inclination would be to pull it over with my arm - just short of snapping it - then place a spreader-stick between it the two. You can also hang a water-filled plastic milk jug somewhere along the limb you wish to spread, adjusting the amount of water as the leaf load (weight) increases through the season. Or - tie it to a stationary object on the ground, like a concrete block or wooden stake with a nail and pounded into the ground. After one season with such a spread the limb will remain at the new angle.
Personally, I’d avoid the cuts and simply spread the limb in a more conventional manor, especially if you’re not sure what’s meant by that description. Plus, any lateral pressure or torque on a limb cut up to ¾ of the way through will likely snap what little is left. The pressure would have to be perfectly downward in order to compress that (self inflicted) wound.
Thank's, Viron, for your thoughtful input into this complex process.
Further Thoughts about Limb-Spreading: I was out pruning this morning and got overwhelmed by the many options available to me. Keeping in mind that I wanted to "open up the tree" I began to make (hopefully) relevant structural cuts, i.e. removing redundant and disruptive scaffold limbs. But, when I began to take into account the option of limb-spreading, many "cuts" became irrelevant or disruptive. I concluded that I had to choose whether or not to do spreading in order to make (or not make) some of the structural cuts. Then there's the possibility that some of the limb spreading might not be successful (i.e. limbs snapping; kerf-causing diseases--if I take the chance). Then there's a need for a backup plan to account for a possible replacement limb. Any comments?
Question: Most of the trees on my property have both structural and height problems. These include stone-fruit, plums and cherimoya as well as apples & pears. My desire would be to try to correct both of these problems.....like today! But, from reading this blog and other sources, I understand that taking too much off a tree at once could be stressful or cause too much compensatory growth. So far, I've been making mainly structural cuts and have been leaving the height (a dozen or more vertical leaders of upwards of 20-25 feet). My questions, Should I: Make structural cuts my priority and address the height next year? Address both? Address both or a mixture of both if I make only a few structural cuts? Address the height only and leave the structural cuts for next year?
Viron, I appreciate the time you take to share your expertise with us "Home Orcharders." I, too, am finding pruning to be very challenging, engaging and rewarding. 
Sincerely,
Michael
Michael, that’s a very good question about spreading larger limbs before finish pruning. I’ve learned to keep that in mind when sizing up a tree and will start bending & spreading various uprights to see just what they’ll take - and what it will take to move them to a more productive position.
Once I’ve selected the candidates I remove whatever’s in my way, then (generally) tie them over. If you tie, use sturdy twine or even rope on the larger stock, keeping in mind the weather will begin to rot and weaken the material. If - in the course of spreading - any of those limbs snap, you’ve got ‘the rest of the tree to work with. If all goes well bending and securing, prune the entire tree as though the ‘new scaffold branches’ are part of its overall shape.
Again - and I mentioned it to another dedicated volunteer at our societies grafting classes Saturday - Training could be a presentation unto itself! - as we likely envisioned eating up another of our weekends presenting it! Home orchardist’s will often overlook the potential you’ve described. Often, the only thing they’ll see is what doesn’t look right, then remove it. But the process of bending and aiming these large stray shoots can utilize the structure and save years of regrowth replacing it. Plus, you generally have to train replacement shoots anyway, so it’s a good time to deal with the ones you already have, if much larger.
Next: to me, structural cuts do affect height. You don’t want or need your fruit trees 25 feet high! The upper structure will shade out everything below and most of your best fruit will be far out of reach. It would be fun and exciting making some of those kerf cuts you’ve described on the best candidates, knowing that if anything went wrong - so what - the tree would simply send up a multitude of new shoots from the ‘stump’ and you could train those. In fact, that’s likely your best option, from what I envision. If they are central leader trees, there is no way to establish fruiting limbs closer to the ground without removing their centers! If there are ‘branch whirls’ of well established limbs low enough, you may take out the entire central leader just a couple of feet above those limbs and rejuvenate the entire tree. - And, at this stage (especially as the sap begins to flow) those ‘stubs’ would be great candidates for some bark grafting/topworking; adding additional cultivars or changing over the bulk of the existing one.
If I could do that kind of work year-round I’d quit my job and go for it! I’m so pumped at the moment, having studied umpteen ‘topworking’ videos on Youtube and having led the ‘advanced grafting’ portion of our grafting classes on Saturday while going over many of the seemingly crazy grafts I’ve done. - but I’m going off the rails here aren’t I
I’d make all the major cuts now; that would give you loads of ‘shoots’ to train next year. You can and likely will be watching their progress, so you can summer thin, tip pinch and remove some of the many new shoots activated by those serious cuts. Or, let them alone and pick out & train the winners next near. Hey, you’ve tickled my passion, keep the questions coming or just keep us posted.
Viron,
I mostly finished up the heirloom orchard heavy pruning phase today in part thanks to your advice about buying a good fruit ladder. from way up there I learned that working from above is really more effective than working from below. Pictured is the 12' fruit ladder I got and boy does it feel more sturdy than any four legged one, as it is very wide at the base, plus it's much easier to set that foreleg into the thick of things. Of course you knew that... so thanks.
I was able to get all the top out of this tree that I wanted (this is a "before" pic).
Bob
Hi Viron,
Been out “training” and pruning those tall leggy apple and Asian pear trees. The “kerfing” didn’t work. The gap left by the saw could not be bridged by the limb in order to re-connect and re-match the cambium. For my two attempts, the limbs broke off 
. Luckily, I kept replacements in mind.
Question: During my “trainings”, I did plenty of tying down of branches in order to make the trees more horizontal. Closer to the trunk, the limbs are very stiff and only slightly movable. Further away, they are more pliable. How long does it usually take for each width of branch to be “reshaped?” Also, I tended to bend them a bit further than my desired angle, assuming that they would spring back to some degree. Is that assumption correct?
On another (but unrelated) pruning topic, I have an apple tree that seems to be in the middle of a couple of seasonal phases. It is fully leaved, has some flower blooms, yet has a few small fresh apples on it. It is nicely horizontal, but needs some major structural pruning and topping. Should I dive in there now or wait for another time, ie. when it’s dormant? I’ve been here since September, and it hasn’t gone dormant yet. Consider that I’m living in N. San Diego County, about 19 miles in from the ocean, a very temperate climate where it goes below freezing infrequently.
Michael
Michael, yeah, I’d envisioned any ‘lateral torque’ on those limbs just twisting and breaking them. Sorry, though replacements are good.
“How long does it usually take for each width of branch to be reshaped?”
One year will do it. And they will not spring back - so tie them where you permanently want them. And even though it’s tricky - spreading that stiff portion of branch as far from the trunk as possible - without snapping it off - is better than leaving an arched curve, especially with the end pointing down! What you’ll get with the arch are several strong water suckers shooting off the upper-most portion of the bent branch while the rest of the branch stays about the same diameter.
If you can spread it a bit more (I’ve used rope, pulling for all I was worth and temporarily tying it off somewhere) then wedge a notched ‘spreader stick’ between the two; then leave the end of the branch aiming slightly up (never down), that should do it. Just be careful not to break the branch when spreading. Careful controlled tension ...a little bit at a time has worked for me. You might also put some cushion, like cut innertube around the ends of the notched sticks to keep them from gouging into the bark.
Boy, San Diego! I thought apple trees needed a minimum amount of winter-chilling or dormancy to survive? I’ve heard of some varieties developed in Israel that need very little chilling, but have no experience with what you’ve described. You said the apples are ‘small’ - so that’s undeveloped apples on a fully leafed tree that’s blooming I’d be tempted to do whatever you think needs doing - or just do it in bits and pieces. You’ve now experienced what would/should have been its dormancy.
Joe Real! - you still around? Any advice? From what I remember - Joe was a contributor from your area doing some amazing grafting on Asian plums. He’s not checked in for quite awhile but would likely have some great advice on the apple pruning cycle... Or anyone else around here, but me ~
I thought I'd post a couple of photos showing how I train my trees in case anyone is interested in seeing such things. I'm a big fan of training since it lets me get results fast and means that the energy the tree put into growing a branch doesn't get wasted, which is how I often feel when pruning.
When pruning I often use small twigs to make branch spreaders, but this only works on smaller shoots. For larger branches I used to use the green webbing that some arborists use when staking trees. It works well, but can be a bit awkward and time consuming to set up, and sometimes looks like there is a spider web of the stuff in trees. It also has the disadvantage of confining the branches more than I'd like. If branches and trees can move a bit, they strengthen in response to the constant motion. So now I prefer to hang discarded sash weights (from old houses) or bricks from branches. I like these weights because they're easy to use, durable, super fast to set up and adjust, allow the branches to move in the wind, and cheap. I hang the weights off branches with straps used for staking trees and put a wire through the grommets in the straps. I happened to have a bunch of fence fasteners that come with metal T-posts, and these work really well to attach the brick or sash weight to the strap. When one brick or sash weight isn't enough, I double them up as in the photo below. My trees, or rather the stuff in them, often get comments.
The photos below are of a peach tree that I'm training to a modified central leader, with different varieties on each whorl of limbs.
Chris Kennel
Denver, CO
zone 5
*My contribution (and quotes) are once again useable on this thread – and if those in the area are interested, here’s this year’s Yamhill County Master Gardener's pruning demonstration information: http://extension.oregonstate.edu/yamhil ... er2012.pdf signup - http://extension.oregonstate.edu/yamhil ... asses-2012
* please note, all; my earlier posts on this subject-thread, along with the vast majority of my forum posts were corrupted by hackers after our battle/s to keep spam and porn off this forum. I’ve reconstructed some, as well as quotes of mine used in the posts of others - in order to make this information available to other fruit enthusiasts. So if some things ‘don’t make sense,’ sorry, they once did ~
The OSU Yamhill County Master Gardener’s had another successful pruning seminar, with only an occasional misting of rain culminating in (for those who hung around afterwards) some sunlight! I believe the attendees hit the program’s maximum enrolment of 20. We spent the bulk of our time discussing one of several (approximately) 15 year old apple and pear trees in the city of Yamhill. As usual, the questions were excellent, demonstrating the advanced knowledge of those completing their OSU Master Gardener status.
We also went over pruning equipment; design, function, maintenance and quality. There were a lot of questions about ‘timing,’ one attendee having heard ‘just this morning’ that it’s “Still too early to prune.” Not in Oregon, or at least our Willamette Valley I suggested, then described a long-time HOS member (and Yamhill County HOS chapter founder) who’d prune as she harvested …in her late 70’s on the family homestead @ 2,000 feet, west of McMinnville, Ore. While watching, I asked her about dieback damage after a hard freeze. She assured me she’d never seen such a thing in all her (seventy-something) years of pruning at that location. My personal experience has shown the same.
I suggested it’s safe to prune apple, pear and European (prune) plum trees at any time, including summer and fall. I did suggest folks hold off pruning peaches until after they’ve bloomed, and wait to prune cherries and Asian plums when several “dry days” are predicted – not ‘warm,’ just dry. We discussed the balance between stored energy & water sucker growth, and how to bring those into balance. We discussed height; most wanting trees they could reach into, like our beautiful subject trees (Thank you Susan!). I suggested height is often dictated by the presence of deer and elk … noting I’d watched a 3 point buck navigating downtown McMinnville last summer, working over roses and fruit trees.
With my usual recommendation of removing everything going: straight up (off a scaffold or lateral limb); straight down; or toward the center – it soon becomes obvious what else is out of place. I suggested keeping lower limbs high enough to mow under, and doing your heaviest pruning in the upper canopy, as that’s where the bulk of the energy goes and shading occurs. Someone pointed out a crossed and “rubbing” branch, so we determined which of the two to remove. We discussed making the “Big cuts,” removing larger limbs as opposed to the multitude of fine pruning and sucker removal. We discussed disease transmission and identification, though fortunately our subject trees appeared disease free.
I described Terminal buds; Lateral buds; and Latent buds. We also identified fruit spurs, or ‘flower buds,’ and pointed out the necessity of leaving them – no matter what direction they’re heading! I demonstrated training a large, well placed water-sucker, as a replacement limb for damaged or missing limbs. We discussed limiting stem growth to only one bud per year, when staying within tight confines. We considered Rootstock; their use and limitations. We even discussed (a little) grafting …as I can rarely help myself – demonstrating a quick whip & tongue graft – always a crowd pleaser
A reoccurring discussion was the establishment and initial pruning of newly purchased trees. As our demo trees were of the same age, the best I could do was demonstrate on a vigorous (6 foot tall) freshly pruned water-sprout. Again, these were great questions. And several folks came armed with photos of older trees in need of some serious long-term pruning and reconstruction. I think we hit on about everything!
I’d also suggested those in attendance log onto our HOS Forum (right here) and that I’d ‘bring this topic to the top,’ and if they’ve any more questions – ask -- and that we’ve a lot of others around here with pruning advice and experience as well. I also let them know how fortunate we are to have such an active group of Home Orchardist’s in this area, the envy of many locals – so use us (and join)! Otherwise – it was a pleasure - yur my kinda people and that’s my kinda fun
PS, missed you, Randy (ac7nj), you’re an inspiration and asset to this program, Viron
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