I am presently in the situation of having more land than money. Accordingly, I would like to start some Dolgo seedlings to use for future topworking, so as to avoid the expense of purchasing trees.
Any advice, beyond just planting the seeds in the ground after harvest and waiting a year?
John,
The goal is not to grow Dolgo trees, and the resulting seedlings would in any event not bear true to the parent. Rather the goal is to grow Dolgo seedlings to have a supply on had so I can graft other stuff on them. Dolgo seedlings were and still are a standard rootstock for cold climates in those situations where a clonal rootstock is not suitable.
Most of our apple trees are on seedling rootstock. They're big and they took ten years to start bearing. So what. They have superior anchorage, requiring no staking. They fruit reliably in both wet and dry years, do just fine after a cold winter like last year's with -25 temps and little snow cover, and have the vigor to recover more quickly from stress of any kind. I also can expect that these trees will live 100 years with proper care. I understand all the benefits dwarfing rootstocks are supposed to have, but in my particular situation I'd rather have the vigor, longevity, and reliability than the small size and precocious bearing of a dwarf. Your climate, soil, site, and situation may lead you to make different choices.
I may do some experimenting with M.111 as we've had good results with it so far on some purchased trees, but availability is a problem since few people use it.
F.N.
Chicago area is a ways away from MN - but there are some climate similarities. This looked promising
and I highly encourage trying pawpaws. There is another msg thread here in this forum with great source with great prices btw (found by your's truly)
http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/pawpaw.html
It does, however, look like some protection would be necessary there in Zone 4 in MN but I bet you could grow them well there.
F.N., I like your goal, and reasoning. So, ‘Standard’ rootstock would be fine with you. …My concern would be the time it will take to …wait for this year’s crop of Dolgo crabs, ‘cold stratify’ their seeds (whatever the process), plant and wait nearly another year before they’re large enough to graft to… If there’s any way to locate a ‘bundle’ of M.111 you might look into that. …It seems you’d gain a year with the scion and two on the rootstock.
Otherwise the seed plan sounds good to me. I juice a lot of apples then dump their pulp on my garden plots; of which the following spring I’ll till under hundreds of seedlings (that actually bothers me). I also have and appreciate standard trees; mine were planted by my Great-grandfather and are going strong, nearly a 100 years worth! There’s a majesty about them that’s becoming lost with dwarfing… Please keep us up on what you decide to do… I can rarely find a ‘standard size’ fruit tree and am not sure beyond a couple of mail-order nurseries where I’d find the rootstock?
Here you go, from one of my favorite nurseries, and (to me) cheap: http://www.raintreenursery.com/catalog/ ... uctID=R110
MM 111's: “5 OR MORE $3.00; 10 OR MORE $2.50; 25 OR MORE $1.75/EACH Produces a semi-standard heavy bearing, precocious, well anchored tree about 20 feet tall. This rootstock has fiberous roots and does well in a wide variety of soils. It is hardy to -35° F. It produces burr knots at the base and should be planted almost up to the graft line.â€
To me, a safer plan - for if there’s any variation in the seedling crabs you might not get the qualities you expect or desire. Whereas certified rootsock with known characteristics would be guaranteed. …And it looks like you could have trees next March @ around $2.00 each! …just plan on gathering your desired varieties and their appropriate pollinators.
Pawpaws... heh...
At my place we get annual low temps of -25 every few years. We're in the colder portion of USDA zone 4. In Chicagoland, which is comfortably in Zone 5, you can grow things like Pawpaws.
In general the only climates comparable to Minnesota's, from a plant hardiness and duration of growing season perspective, are found in Wyoming, the Dakotas, Montana, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, the colder portions of Maine, parts of Russia, Mongolia and the inland portions of northern China. There are certain microclimates in mountainous portions of Colorado and Utah that are similar in terms of temperature but the soil, rainfall, and day length are totally different.
We can still grow a better-tasting Honeycrisp than anyone on the coast, though.
[quote="Viron":3ns13oqy]F.N., I like your goal, and reasoning. So, ‘Standard’ rootstock would be fine with you. …My concern would be the time it will take to …wait for this year’s crop of Dolgo crabs, ‘cold stratify’ their seeds (whatever the process), plant and wait nearly another year before they’re large enough to graft to… If there’s any way to locate a ‘bundle’ of M.111 you might look into that. …It seems you’d gain a year with the scion and two on the rootstock.[/quote:3ns13oqy]
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Time is what we make of it. At 44 I am still young. Time favors the landlord, the vintner, the parent, the arboriculturist, and the faithful. It is written that the best time to plant a tree is usually 2-3 years ago, and taking this as my text I'm trying to plan ahead.
I will check out the M.111 available from Raintree for next spring. I will still want a supply of rootstocks for subsequent years however.
The variability of seedling rootstock in my experience is overrated as far as the casual orchardist is concerned. You may get a 25' tree when you expected a 35' tree, and while that sort of thing is cause for alarm among the commercial guys who count every penny it really doesn't matter much to me. I space them wide anyway.
I note that Raintree has Antanovka rootstock as well. I sent them an order for spring 2010 delivery of some of that and some M.111.
I'm still going to plant some Dolgo seed, though . Any advice, beyond putting an orange flag on the portion of the compost pile where I dump the pomace?
I would like to start some Dolgo seedlings to use for future topworking
I hope they work better for you than seedlings from random apples I have planted. Some of my seedling seem to reject anything and everything -- not something that I expected to happen. Imagine my horror when come spring grafting, with very rare and limited scionwood, it appears that the graft was somehow rejected, and suckers are forming on the rootstock!
I have grafted 70 Antonovkas in a row and not had any of them fail (although they are currently suckering). Random seedlings that I have grafted? Probably 20-30 percent failure rate, and this I attribute to speculated incompatibility. I am not going to run molecular tests on these failures to prove any point, but also realize there is nothing wrong with my grafting skills.
Edit: I also had some regular Antonovkas in one gallon pots fail all their grafts. I am thinking their root systems got too hot at the time they were grafted, or something. Not really sure what made them all fail. Other potted Antonovka's that were chip-budded last summer grew just fine this year, however. It makes no sense to me.
Point: do not be suprised if some of your Dolgo seedlings refuse to accept new material. It can happen.
Also note that most seedling apple stocks will sucker profusely over the lifespan of the tree. More work for you in the end. Better to find something cold hardy and suckerless.
SPROUTFREE® [100% standard size tree] New, highly sucker resistant, vigorous, well anchored rootstock for flowering crab apple cultivars. Hardy to Zone 3 LINK
SPROUTFREE® rootstock on several varieties of flowering crabapples. This rootstock results in beautiful, healthy trees producing few, if any, root sprouts. They are hardy to Zone 2 LINK
Carlton Nursery in Dayton, Oregon is also said to propagate this stock.
[quote="jafarj":13y1sqwr]How do they propogate suckerless rootstocks? Are they a lot more expensive?[/quote:13y1sqwr]
I suppose they propagate them by stooling, much as any other stock.
A rootstock of the desired cultivar is planted and pruned off a few inches above ground. Several upright, vigorous vegetative shoots will develop. As these grow, the lower portion is mounded with moist sawdust which allows rooting of these shoots while they are attached to the parent plant. In late autumn or early spring, the sawdust is pulled back and these rooted layers are removed for use as rootstock in grafting new trees.
I would not call them the most expensive, but certainly not the cheapest either. While you can purchase other stocks for 70 to 80 cents apiece in bundles of a hundred, these babies will run $1 each plus a 20 cent royalty tacked on, plus their shipping. I am considering getting a hundred pack this winter, maybe keeping 50 for myself, making the rest available to whoever, if there is the interest. Contact me via the email button if you are interested.
I don't think I would need a hundred of them!
My wife says I don't need 50 either, but she doesn't understand that I need to collect the "whole set"!
[quote="plumfun":2oxg0ct3][quote="jafarj":2oxg0ct3]How do they propogate suckerless rootstocks? Are they a lot more expensive?[/quote:2oxg0ct3]
I suppose they propagate them by stooling, much as any other stock.
A rootstock of the desired cultivar is planted and pruned off a few inches above ground. Several upright, vigorous vegetative shoots will develop. As these grow, the lower portion is mounded with moist sawdust which allows rooting of these shoots while they are attached to the parent plant. In late autumn or early spring, the sawdust is pulled back and these rooted layers are removed for use as rootstock in grafting new trees... [/quote:2oxg0ct3]
I guess I figured that trees that sucker would be more amenable to stooling. Does stooling work with all varieties?
You can also start root cuttings. Find a good dwarf tree and dig down to pencil diameter roots. Keep the orientation of them (which end is toward the tree, which is away from the tree). Cut pieces six inches long and plant them in a nursery row with the proximal (end that was toward the tree) just poking above the soil surface. Give it good care and it should sprout and grow. You now have dwarf rootstock trees, which you can increase even more by stooling, as discussed already.
Jafar, yes, I think all apple stocks of commerce are stooled in some manner. I have heard that Ottowa-3 is difficult because it does not care to form strong adventitious roots. So with that one they recommend you grow it in the ground for a year, then graft it.
Lon, that is a very good idea. I totally forgot that method, even though I expanded my Antonovkas one year by doing just that. Thanks for the reminder!
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