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Scion Exchange, timing of grafts and other questions
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jekahrs
80 Posts
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1
January 13, 2020 - 1:52 pm

I noticed that the scion exchange is in March. By then apples, plums and pears would have blossomed. How does the timing work? Can you graft later into spring even if the plant has already dropped it's blossoms? I presume the scions are refrigerated.

I presume "exchange"  means something like "if you have something interesting to offer, bring it". So that people like myself with nothing to offer can still get scions even if we are not technically "exchanging". (giving?)

Also, I was looking at my espalier tree and checking out the grafts to see if I could cut them and put new grafts in. The grafts look "flat" rather then "tongue and groove" which is kinda of what I expected. How hard is it to change grafts? In hindsight the "build your own pear tree" would have been really cool (Not sure if they are espalier though). There two out of four grafts I would like to change. I want unusual varieties that are difficult to find (Buerre Superfin!). I will also grow the main tree higher and add two more grafts in a year or two to make six total.

---------------

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brush
sw hills, portland, oregon
10 Posts
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January 14, 2020 - 12:14 am

others will have more authoritative answers, but here's a start:

yes, everyone can get scions. those that are providing scions will be cutting them now in the dormancy, and then refrigerating them. one normally waits until the cambium is slipping to graft, so mid-March or even later is perfectly fine. as long as the scion is dormant, the rest of the tree's blooms don't matter.

it's perfectly possible to graft new varieties on, but i wouldn't try to "cut out" the existing graft union. just add a new graft, either a rind graft in the main stem, or a tongue and groove on a branch where it's small enough (or both).

good luck!

.b

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John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
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3
January 14, 2020 - 4:57 pm

Yes, nice job and welcome to the forum, brush.

Same entry price for all.  One scion from each variety can be taken. 

For very rare varieties, sometimes you have to network within HOS, such as on this list, or ask Shaun or Joanie, for example.

JohN S
PDX OR

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davem
312 Posts
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4
January 15, 2020 - 11:51 am

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the March event isn't so much an "exchange" as a "distribution" event.  i.e. don't bring anything but your admission money, wish list, sharpie, masking tape, and a plastic bag or two. I also bring a small backpack to carry things so I can have my hands free to use my sharpie. 

The main point of the event is to pick up exactly one of each of the varieties on your wish list (which you are likely, but not guaranteed, to find).

There are of course exceptions, such as the scions that I bring from my relatively new seedling apple "Miss Jessamine".  But I expect those to start showing up from the regular sources before too long.

I have also been known to do trades in the parking lot, coordinated via this forum :-).  E.g. larger quantities, bare root plants, etc.

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jekahrs
80 Posts
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5
January 16, 2020 - 1:35 pm

Thanks for the awesome feedback! I am excited to try my hand at grafting. Since my tree is an espalier, it is hard to find a good place to graft other then where they put their original grafts. Plus I have no use for regular varieties on 2 of the 4 branches, which I can easily get at a grocery store. In hindsight "build and tree" would have been better although not sure if that is done in espalier.

I saw a couple of medlars at the fruit exchange (Dzevera and Norashenik) that were a lot larger than the typical medlars being sold by OGW. I doubt anyone but OSU has these. Any thoughts? I did send a note to OGW telling them about these cultivars so hopefully that will change.

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John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
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6
January 18, 2020 - 9:29 pm

I have a Royal medlar tree and grafted "Nottingham" to it.  I like both and I enjoy having two different flavors. Pollination is probably better too.

John S
PDX OR

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
212 Posts
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January 25, 2020 - 6:59 pm

jekahrs said
....//  I would like to change. I want unusual varieties that are difficult to find (Buerre Superfin!). I will also grow the main tree higher and add two more grafts in a year or two to make six total.

---------------  

I am pretty sure scion for that pear (Beurre Superfin) has been regularly available at the propagation fair; collected from the repository in Corvallis. Depending on last years growth habits/conditions and occasionally some rejuvenation pruning or damage may limit the ability to collect some variety or another so can't promise it'll be available but very well could be.

Allowing the bottom couple of limbs to develop a couple years before adding more is likely a good tactic, purported by Karen T (the HOS Arboretum manager when I became an avid member) and I'm sure others as well, to get a good start before adding the shade element to the equation. I am not convinced that vigor is ever taken into account on the 4X general nursery offerings (apples anyway) from what I've seen at peoples homes I've had the occasion to visit. I understand that the budding (usual 4X commercial grafting technique) expediently is all at the time; so you get whatever they think might be popular with perhaps a nod to pollination. Not maybe so much more desirable varieties and placements. 

I had been watching a pear rootstock grow for maybe 4-5 or so years, waiting to figure out what I wanted to put on it. Cut if off once at about 30", encouraged a whorl like lateral growth of 5 of 8, I think nicely spaced, well angled possibilities for whip and tongue grafting, which has been my preferred/most successful graft style. Grafted last day of March '19. This will be a fruit shrub if I can keep it in check. AND I have no idea of the vigor attributes of the 5 varieties introduced. It will be a sheer serendipitous occurrence if the more vigorous of the varieties happens to have ended up on the north side.

3/31/19 several nurse branches left on to draw sap.

IMG_3745.jpgIMG_4007-1.jpg7/8/19 IMG_4549.jpg1/25/20

Seckel, Sensation, Gem, Dana Hovey and Klementinka. Bamboo training stakes for limb spreaders; now 4squirrel nix.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
375 Posts
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8
February 14, 2020 - 7:46 pm

Yes, the HOS "scion exchange" is really more of a "distribution" of scions, although the implicit premise is that active members with accurately identified fruit trees will be willing to donate scion wood to the event for others to acquire.  Scions of dubious identity shouldn't be contributed because the correct identity of the clonal material is vitally important.  

That being said, if you have scion-wood material from an apple or other fruit tree that you believe is worth cultivating but for which you don't know the original name (--if any--), you could still contribute scions with the appropriate information about the parent tree, along with descriptive information and clear indication of its origin.  If you have a particular name that you have given to the unique tree, then include that with the caveat that it is a name that you gave to it, and that it isn't a generally recognized name.  A description of the fruit and its qualities should be included in the information.  There is certainly more than one example of a hedgerow tree, or volunteer seedling in a pasture, that subsequently became a widely cultivated tree of merit.  

By all means try your hand at grafting fruit trees.  Early-on it might be a bit intimidating, but it's such a wonderful ability to have.  My first (--and, I believe only--) exposure to grafting was in my Grandpa's garden in southern California where one summer I saw my green-thumbed Grandpa Chet grafting an apricot scion to one of his established apricot trees.  He told me that it was a different variety that he had acquired.  ...Wow!  What a fascinating ability to have!  ...It was several years after when I made my own first graft, but with the first success and an understanding of the underlying requirements in the process, I was pleased to add a unique talent that surpasses so many others.

Grafting is the kind of talent and "artwork" that needs to be passed-on to future generations of kids....

Reinettes (Tim).

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
212 Posts
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9
February 17, 2020 - 12:57 pm

jekahrs said .......     I saw a couple of medlars at the fruit exchange (Dzevera and Norashenik) that were a lot larger than the typical medlars being sold by OGW. I doubt anyone but OSU has these. Any thoughts? I did send a note to OGW telling them about these cultivars so hopefully that will change.  

We are going to the US Germplasm Repository at Corvallis tomorrow Tuesday 2/18, to collect pear and other scions for the Fruit Prop fair on 3/15.

We will also be gathering medlar, that will be available at the fair. I don't know that the varieties Dzevera and Norashenik will be found. I wasn't able to gather fruit for or attend the last  All About Fruit Show, the third weekend of October, so I don't personally have knowledge of them, or even if we are referring to the same exhibition. We'll do our best to check for those, though.Smile

On another medlar note; I found, a couple years ago, a rather smallish medlar, listed as wild from the Ukraine I believe, maybe Turkey, that had a flavor that for my receptors surpassed the others large and small that we collected for the show that year. My preferred method of consumption is fresh, blett of course, hand to mouth, in the truck returning from a 2&1/2 hr sweeps call. These 'wild' medlars has that spiced applesauce taste and texture, but  didn't have, what I consider, a characteristic dryness to their mouth feel. Perfect for my purpose. Maybe not so good should I have interest in further processing; like wondrous jam or whatnot. The larger pomes would figure to win out in those cases, I have no doubt.Wink

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
212 Posts
(Offline)
10
February 19, 2020 - 10:05 am

Reinettes said

By all means try your hand at grafting fruit trees.  Early-on it might be a bit intimidating, but it's such a wonderful ability to have.  My first (--and, I believe only--) exposure to grafting was in my Grandpa's garden in southern California where one summer I saw my green-thumbed Grandpa Chet grafting an apricot scion to one of his established apricot trees.  He told me that it was a different variety that he had acquired.  ...Wow!  What a fascinating ability to have!  ...It was several years after when I made my own first graft, but with the first success and an understanding of the underlying requirements in the process, I was pleased to add a unique talent that surpasses so many others.

Grafting is the kind of talent and "artwork" that needs to be passed-on to future generations of kids....

Reinettes (Tim).  

Let me plug the grafting class for the locals. HOS in combination with CCC Clackamas Community College, host/teach a beginning and intermediate bench grafting class Saturday 2/29. Registration is through CCC. Location is on the CCC campus in Oregon City. Details are on the events page on the header above. You get guided practice, a choice of scions and a rootstock for the price of admission, so you come away with a tree that you have put together, (or 2 if you take both classes).

Saturday, 2/29/2020
8:45 am - 10:30 am
CCC Class: Grafting- beginners
Clackamas Community College – Clairmont Hall, Oregon City OR
Saturday, 2/29/2020
10:45 am - 12:30 pm
CCC Class: Grafting- Intermediate
Clackamas Community College – Clairmont Hall, Oregon City OR
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John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
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11
February 23, 2020 - 7:35 pm

I bring scions every year.  I think that many do. The last time I asked, I was told that 90% are from individual orchardists and 10% are from institutions.

JohN S
PDX OR

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Pugs
40 Posts
(Offline)
12
March 1, 2020 - 6:39 pm

I'm hoping there will be some Firecracker Crab scions and Sargent "Tina" crabapple scions. As well as a few others.  Gotta get my wish list written up.

And the math tests are killing me.  I'm old!  I've forgotten my math.  Hoping it doesn't get into algerba, or worse, trig.

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Pugs
40 Posts
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13
March 5, 2020 - 8:00 am

Since I've only been to one of these exchanges, and it was over 20 years ago, I ask what to expect? 

Past events (I've read) have had a person there would would sharpen your shears for a small fee, someone selling grafting tools (but Tonya said at the grafting classes that she hasn't been able to get a hold of him), and rootstock.

But what else?

Cuttings for grapes?  What about blueberries? Raspberries? Elderberries? Rhubarb? Asparagus? ????

Help me out here please.  What can be expected, or what has been there in previous years?

Thanks ever so much.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
375 Posts
(Offline)
14
March 7, 2020 - 5:52 pm

Pugs said
....Past events (I've read) have had a person there would would sharpen your shears for a small fee, someone selling grafting tools....
...But what else?
...Cuttings for grapes?  What about blueberries? Raspberries? Elderberries? Rhubarb? Asparagus? ....

Pugs,

In a given year there are usually many varieties of apples and pears available as scionwood, as well as a lesser number of plums and cherries, and a diversity of odd-ball things.  Usually a surprising number of grapes available as dormant cuttings (--all the grapes that I have were started as HOS cuttings--).  

There are vendors for various potted fruits and so forth.

Two or three years ago I finally remembered to bring my pruning shears to have them professionally sharpened, but it coincided with the first year (apparently) that the guy wasn't there.  However, there is someone there who sells replacement parts for some pruners (--like my Felco 8 hand-pruners, for which I got a replacement blade last year).  Don't know what else he has, but he had a lot of stuff.  One of the other members may have more information regarding fruits and accessories. I'm probably blinded by my own priorities.  (--Oh yes, and there are a nice diversity of books for purchase.)

Once you get a handle on grafting techniques, and begin to master the process, you'll find that the diversity of material available at the HOS "scion exchange" is nearly priceless.  Step 1:  Understand the process of grafting, i.e., as to what's required to make the graft successful.  Step 2:  Sample a broad diversity of fruits so that you know what you really like.  Step 3:  decide which ones you really want, and that do well in you local environment and soil, and that you have room for in your yard or on your property.  Step 4:  continue educating yourself on what your plants need in order to make them thrive and be productive.  

Gardening, orcharding, agriculture, all require that the caretaker know the needs of the individual plants and strives to give them all the care and nutrients that they need individually.  Know thy plants.  Your care and concern go a long way toward success and, ultimately, a pleasant harvest best savoured by the caretaker.

Reinettes.

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Pugs
40 Posts
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15
March 8, 2020 - 7:35 am

Reinettes, thank you so much for the reply.  You've given me a better idea of what to expect.  I'll bring $$ and a CC.

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
684 Posts
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16
March 8, 2020 - 9:14 am

Pugs said
I'm hoping there will be some Firecracker Crab scions and Sargent "Tina" crabapple scions. As well as a few others.  Gotta get my wish list written up.

If they have an ornamental crabapple section then I will put a few scions there of 'sargent tina'. If not then see me at the volunteer grafting area.

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Pugs
40 Posts
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17
March 8, 2020 - 1:39 pm

Rooney said

Pugs said
I'm hoping there will be some Firecracker Crab scions and Sargent "Tina" crabapple scions. As well as a few others.  Gotta get my wish list written up.

If they have an ornamental crabapple section then I will put a few scions there of 'sargent tina'. If not then see me at the volunteer grafting area.  

Great Zeus!  Thank you Rooney.  You are most kind.  I will find them or you.  I'm volunteering at 9:30 to hand out door prize tickets (Tonya is giving me something easy, which is smart of her).

I wish I had something to give you, but I'm just starting out, in my old age - gotta have something to do in retirement!

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jekahrs
80 Posts
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18
March 13, 2020 - 3:38 pm

Thanks sweepbjames!

Appreciate your hard work! Given the cancellation of the propagation fair, this will prove interesting. Per a note above it seems that it is suggested I wait another year or two to get the tree established. Thoughts? It has been in the ground one year.

Fun to see what Medlars you found.

I am rooting (ha ha) for the Home Orchard Society to put a spreadsheet up with scions available. Then you could e-mail the person and pick them up. Only one on one!

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sweepbjames
NE Portland, OR Cully Neighborhood
212 Posts
(Offline)
19
March 15, 2020 - 3:03 am

jekahrs said
I am rooting (ha ha) for the Home Orchard Society to put a spreadsheet up with scions available. 

See the News 'Update' header under the Home or Events page from the top of the page. Or here:

https://www.homeorchardsociety.....on-fair-7/

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John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
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20
March 20, 2020 - 12:29 pm

Today's update:

http://hosted.verticalresponse.....369f7391a/

John S
PDX OR

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jekahrs
80 Posts
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21
March 22, 2020 - 2:46 pm

SCION CHOICE:

Took a look at the list. Several of my preferred grafts are there. I need an additional graft for the pear tree. Below are some ideas. Anyone try these?

One will be Beauree Superfin which will be added to a Flemish Beauty and Seckel.  One is undecided. Below are some which I took pictures from. I probably like the taste or and/or color.

Abbe Fetal

Colette

Lukavanski

Orcas sounded good and noticed the guy on the grafting video used moonglow. Haven't tried either.

Which one would you pick? Also, are we limited to one scion? Is it not advisable to get two in case you screw up or should one shrug and try again next year?

 

Thanks!

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Pugs
40 Posts
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22
March 23, 2020 - 8:47 am

My order is going in the mail today.  I hope it isn't too confussing. 

I included enough for everything I put down, including the alternatives.  If they are out of something I'd like, well HOS can keep the money for those as a donation.

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davem
312 Posts
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23
March 23, 2020 - 1:19 pm

jekahrs said
SCION CHOICE:

Took a look at the list. Several of my preferred grafts are there. I need an additional graft for the pear tree. Below are some ideas. Anyone try these?

One will be Beauree Superfin which will be added to a Flemish Beauty and Seckel.  One is undecided. Below are some which I took pictures from. I probably like the taste or and/or color.

Abbe Fetal

Colette

Lukavanski

Orcas sounded good and noticed the guy on the grafting video used moonglow. Haven't tried either.

Which one would you pick? Also, are we limited to one scion? Is it not advisable to get two in case you screw up or should one shrug and try again next year?

 

Thanks!  

I second your choice of Colette.  Here is my list of pears I've tasted at the fruit show.  10 = best I've ever tasted, 1 = throw it in the compost.  Of course this is just my personal opinion based on that particular pear.

Name Score Notes Date
Colette 10 grafted 2014
Comice 10 grafted 2014
bosc 9    
directeur hardy 9    
Flemish Beauty 9   2014
honey sweet 9    
RX-19 9 Huge 10/17/2015
Taylors gold 9    
Worden Seckle 9   10/17/2015
leopardo morettini 9    
beurre d'amanlis panachee 8    
buttide de austu 8    
El Dorado 8   10/17/2015
Howell sport 8    
Itala Pirovano 8   2014
longue vert 8    
madam bon fond 8    
Madame Verte 8   10/17/2015
orcas 8    
patrick barry 8 late ripening  
president hardy 8   10/15/2016
president heron 8   10/15/2016
princess 8    
romania 8    
seckel 8   10/15/2016
surecrop 8    
vodenjac 8    
White Doyenne 8   10/17/2015
highland 8    
romania 8    
ankou-columbia red 7    
Conference 7 sweet 2014
Duchesse de mouchy 7    
emancipation 7    
hofrath's birne 7    
madam boutant 7    
max red Bartlett 7    
nova 7   10/15/2016
NY 10262 7   10/15/2016
okolo 7    
poire d'anus 7    
porporata 7    
president deviolaine 7   10/15/2016
president hardy 7    
princess 7   10/15/2016
republica 7    
rocha 7   10/15/2016
Tait Dropmore 7 Hard 10/17/2015
Vermont beauty 7   10/15/2016
warren 7   10/15/2016
winioska saska 7    
Winkle man (el dorado?) 7    
success de la meillerage 7    
USDA 463 7    
butirra d'rome 6    
cascade 6    
maries Louise d'uccle 6   10/15/2016
michurin beurre zimnaya 6    
Miller seedling 6    
Pierce corneille 6   10/15/2016
pineapple 6   10/15/2016
president loubet 6   10/15/2016
regal red comice 6    
rescue 6   10/15/2016
sarteau rogue 6   10/15/2016
Elliot 5   10/17/2015
Favorite Morel 5   10/17/2015
Maxie 5 grainy 2014
nic-20813-india 5   10/15/2016
Orcas 5 huge 2014
paraow 5   10/15/2016
Seckel 5 blah 2014
starking delicious 5   10/15/2016
Winnals longdon 5   10/15/2016
Dixie 4   10/17/2015
president osmonville 40 4   10/15/2016
winter nelis 4    
Roi Charles de Wurtemberg 3 Huge, dry 10/17/2015
Winnals longdon 3    
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davem
312 Posts
(Offline)
24
March 23, 2020 - 1:24 pm

Just noticed I had a few missing from my scorecard above:

Flemish Beauty 9    
Itala Pirouana 8    
Rogue Red 10    
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John S
PDX OR
2593 Posts
(Offline)
25
March 23, 2020 - 4:28 pm

Thanks for the chart DaveM.

I also like Collette a lot.  The only reason I think that it never became a big commercial pear is because it is everbearing.  Slowly, over a long time, giving you another pear. Great for home orchardists, but frustrating for large commercial growers.

I like Orcas. Last year I found it to be astonishingly productive. I think it tastes good too.  I also love Leopardo Morettini. It's fun to say, especially when you are speaking Italian.
John S
PDX OR

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jekahrs
80 Posts
(Offline)
26
March 24, 2020 - 7:29 pm

DaveM, great list! Wish you had some more detailed comments, but I am thankful none the less. Since I can get Comice and Red Bartlett at the store I figured to get unusual varieties of pears. So I am planning on replacing them with:

My tree has Flemish Beauty, which sounds like a winner

It also has Seckel, which it sounds like you don't like, but I will try it this year and see if I like it. If not, I will check out Leopardo Morettini and Oracas at the fruit fair in the fall, assuming we will have it.

Since everyone seems to like Collete, I will get some of those. I also liked the color. Pretty pear.

I notice that no one has beurre superfin on their list of favorites. The pear guy highly recommended it.

I think those two pears will be it for now

For apples, I was going to try the one rose apple i liked, Airlie Red Flesh and maybe Erwin Bauer. 

I presume that due to time and Covid, getting other types of fruit, such as plums and cherries ain't happening this year. I am grateful we did get the pears and apples though! Got my fruit sox! Very excited about getting apples that are not screwed up. I also take care of my  neighbor's quince trees and these will work perfectly.

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jekahrs
80 Posts
(Offline)
27
April 22, 2020 - 7:26 pm

OK. tried grafting. Because I have a espalier tree I was not sure which graft to use since most of the grafts look liked they came directly out of the tree, like they used the drill method. So I used the drill method and added growth hormone. Used Elmer's wood glue to seal the grafts. Of course they might have been trimming bark and using a diagonal cut on the scion, but it just didn't look like they did that. I put 3 grafts on and dropped some of the new pears on the other branches so that more energy will go to growth. Once top branch is growing to much so I have to figure out how to make it chill out.

I also tried grafting a branch to my paw paw tree using a split method. The scion and the cut branch had different sizes, so I am not sure if the cambium lined up right. 

I ended up grafting 3 pear scions. Colette, Leopordo Moretitti and Abbe Fetal. No idea how successful I will be. Used Elmer's wood glue to seal the grafts.

Interesting list of favorite pears from the curator of the World Pear Collection at the National Clonal Germplasm
Repository in Corvallis, Oregon, for future consideration:

https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUs.....2-2012.pdf

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