Hi everyone, newbie here. I recently moved to a new home in central Wisconsin Zone 4b and am interested in planting a few apple trees for a home orchard. I have been doing my best to “sift†through all the conflicting information on the web regarding rootstocks and varieties and I must admit that I’m thoroughly confused.
Some information suggests that I should NOT plant trees grown on semi-dwarf rootstock due to my location. But when I go online to look for varieties that would seem appropriate to my needs, they are mostly grown on semi-dwarf rootstock!
I have room to accommodate three trees right now and to start, would like to have two early/mid season and one late season for storage. The flavor must be bright/full-flavored and the apple must have a balance between sweet and ‘tart’, crisp and juicy (I don’t want much do I?) Obviously, disease resistance would be great too.
A friend of mine has a lovely tree in her yard. It bears in mid to late August in Zone 4b and has all of the attributes I mentioned above. It has more of a spreading habit and produces THE most flavorful apples I have ever eaten. Naturally, she doesn’t know what variety it is…grrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
Any home growers here from Zone 4b that can help me with accurate rootstock and variety advice? Any and all help would be truly appreciated.
RVcook
RVcook,
Welcome, from The Pacific Northwest! …I’m no rootstock expert, and hope/expect several will check in, but wanted to go over your situation. I’m not sure what rootstock promotes ‘cold hardiness,’ which I suspect your conditions may require..? There are also very dwarfing rootstocks that are susceptible to ‘snapping off’ with heavy wind, snow or fruit loads and must be supported; but I doubt you’re looking for a tree ‘that small.’
I cannot understand why “semi-dwarf rootstock†would be discouraged for “your area?†I’ve seen conditions, not unlike my own, where some soil is so poor you’d be better off with a ‘full-sized’ tree, digging-in as best it could with hopes of ending up a ‘decent sized’ tree. Or, surrounded by deer, elk or cattle where you’d best have a ‘monster tree’ that’s well out of their reach… There are also wet soil conditions that some rootstocks do better in than others.
And unless you order your trees from a… very repeatable nursery, it’s usually impossible to find out what the “semi-dwarf†rootstock is! If you’re at a ‘good local nursery’ I suspect the rootstock is fairly specific to your local; if you’re at a ‘big-box’ retail outlet selling begged trees for $6.99… who knows? …There have been some interesting descriptions around here as members have attempted to find just ‘what rootstock’ such a tree is on… as the clerk calls the manager, who calls the distributor who attempts to contact the grower…
We’ve got a great deal ‘out here’ – our Home Orchard Society’s annual “Scion Exchange.†I generally graft there and would be happy to put together several trees for you! We’ve got a Rootstock selection with knowledgeable members ready to advise you, hundreds of varieties of ‘apple scions (cuttings)’ (and most everything else!), and several grafters to ‘splice’ them together. You could gather a handful of water-shoots (now) from your neighbor’s tree, or any other tree you’ve found and like, and have them placed on a rootstock compatible with your desires… but you’re in Wisconsin~
I’ve read of nursery’s that will custom graft your scions then send you the small tree. I also know of a local nursery that caters to the Mid-west market. Touring it, few of our members recognized their apple varieties… Our guide, an HOS member, employee of the nursery and a Mid-west transplant smiled as he described them being located in Oregon due to our mild and long growing season yet growing fruit trees specifically for the Mid-west. So… I’d suspect a ‘good’ local nursery would carry trees suited for your area; leaving you the decision as to what cultivar or ‘variety’ you’d like.
As mentioned, I’d love to see you get a tree ‘just like’ your neighbor’s! Check for any grafters or ‘like organizations’ in your area; or graft one yourself! Most decent mail-order nurseries now sell rootstock. You could collect and store the wood, order the rootstock (preferably one to three), research grafting online - and go for it. It’s also a cheap start to buy one of those bagged trees - a variety that sounds good to you - then try grafting on a limb or two of ‘the neighbors’ tree…
Are you really confused now? If so, let me know – or, wait until someone simply answers your question 
" title="Wink" />
[quote="Viron":2m1yuleg]RVcook,
Welcome, from The Pacific Northwest! …I’m no rootstock expert, and hope/expect several will check in, but wanted to go over your situation. I’m not sure what rootstock promotes ‘cold hardiness,’ which I suspect your conditions may require..? There are also very dwarfing rootstocks that are susceptible to ‘snapping off’ with heavy wind, snow or fruit loads and must be supported; but I doubt you’re looking for a tree ‘that small.’
I cannot understand why “semi-dwarf rootstock†would be discouraged for “your area?†I’ve seen conditions, not unlike my own, where some soil is so poor you’d be better off with a ‘full-sized’ tree, digging-in as best it could with hopes of ending up a ‘decent sized’ tree. Or, surrounded by deer, elk or cattle where you’d best have a ‘monster tree’ that’s well out of their reach… There are also wet soil conditions that some rootstocks do better in than others.
And unless you order your trees from a… very repeatable nursery, it’s usually impossible to find out what the “semi-dwarf†rootstock is! If you’re at a ‘good local nursery’ I suspect the rootstock is fairly specific to your local; if you’re at a ‘big-box’ retail outlet selling begged trees for $6.99… who knows? …There have been some interesting descriptions around here as members have attempted to find just ‘what rootstock’ such a tree is on… as the clerk calls the manager, who calls the distributor who attempts to contact the grower…
We’ve got a great deal ‘out here’ – our Home Orchard Society’s annual “Scion Exchange.†I generally graft there and would be happy to put together several trees for you! We’ve got a Rootstock selection with knowledgeable members ready to advise you, hundreds of varieties of ‘apple scions (cuttings)’ (and most everything else!), and several grafters to ‘splice’ them together. You could gather a handful of water-shoots (now) from your neighbor’s tree, or any other tree you’ve found and like, and have them placed on a rootstock compatible with your desires… but you’re in Wisconsin~
I’ve read of nursery’s that will custom graft your scions then send you the small tree. I also know of a local nursery that caters to the Mid-west market. Touring it, few of our members recognized their apple varieties… Our guide, an HOS member, employee of the nursery and a Mid-west transplant smiled as he described them being located in Oregon due to our mild and long growing season yet growing fruit trees specifically for the Mid-west. So… I’d suspect a ‘good’ local nursery would carry trees suited for your area; leaving you the decision as to what cultivar or ‘variety’ you’d like.
As mentioned, I’d love to see you get a tree ‘just like’ your neighbor’s! Check for any grafters or ‘like organizations’ in your area; or graft one yourself! Most decent mail-order nurseries now sell rootstock. You could collect and store the wood, order the rootstock (preferably one to three), research grafting online - and go for it. It’s also a cheap start to buy one of those bagged trees - a variety that sounds good to you - then try grafting on a limb or two of ‘the neighbors’ tree…
Are you really confused now? If so, let me know – or, wait until someone simply answers your question " title="Wink" />[/quote:2m1yuleg]
Thank you for the warm welcome! I was born in the northwest and although a 'transplant' to the midwest, have throughly enjoyed my return visits there.
You have not confused me more...you have actually reinforced what I was thinking especially about getting nursery stock from a REPUTABLE nursery...no big box store stock for me thank you!
The issue of rootstock is supposedly a big one due to our location. I do not have "poor" soil, but perhaps it is not optimal and like you, I see no need to plant standard sized trees. But with that said, I really should be quite picky about rootstock since I want the greatest chance of success given the growing conditions here.
We are new to this area and will take your advice to visit with our local nursery. Hopefully, they will be able to help me by explaining what rootstock would be optimal here. As far as varieties go, I'm just going to have to continue doing research. I think I just LOVE them all!!! And who knows...maybe if I get "brave" I'll attempt grafting on my friend's tree 
!.
Thank you so much for your kind reply.
RVcook
Check out the publications in your state's Extension Service for some basic info on what to expect for diseases, pests, cultivars, etc. I found the following publications on the University of Wisconsin Extension Service website:
http://learningstore.uwex.edu/...../A3565.PDF
http://learningstore.uwex.edu/...../A2105.pdf
Also check University of Minnesota extension, several good varieties came from their apple breeding programs: Zestar, Sweet 16, Honeycrisp, Honeygold to name a few. They specialize in breeding fruits suitable for the far north they have a few grapes now too.
I grew up in ND and moved to the PNW 11 years ago. I go back to ND and graft onto my mother's apple trees whenever I collect a scion that is suitable for Zone 3. So far I've put gravenstein, Wolf River, Sweet 16, Honeygold, and a few others on her Haroldsons. The best tip I could share with you about grafting is don't use too long of a piece of scion wood, two to three inches long with two or three buds is all you need. Much more and you stress the graft because the scion is transpiring moisture out and the new graft can't supply enough to support much more than a couple inches of grafted material.
In my own orchard here in Western Washington I am selecting disease resistant varieties with various maturity dates so I can have fresh apples from August through November. I have one tree I pick the apples in November, put them in a tote on the north side of the house outside and eat them all winter long, one year they kept until April.
You have not said how much space in square feet you have. You also should mention the soil type.
Personally, I would put the 'summer apples' on a full dwarf root, like M9, cause you won't use that many and they don't keep.
For fall and winter keepers, I would graft onto a stronger root like M 26 or P 4.
If you're on the valley floor in rich alluvial soil, the trees will be a bit larger, even on a dwarf root.
If you have sandy gravelly soils, the dwarf roots may suffer.
I have two trees on M 7, but it is a bit too vigorous rootstock for me and you get a lot of suckers from the root each season.
Consider also, that some of the best apples are also triploids and pollen sterile.
Winter Banana is a fair apple and an awsome pollenator, or you could just plant a crabapple near by.
Malus Floribunda is a good scab free selection for pollen.
Dubyadee: Thank you for the links. I have downloaded the booklets and found that they are VERY informative! This is a really good starting point since there doesn't seem to be one definitive guide to growing apples.
Boizeau: The terrain here is sloped with a sunny south/south-west exposure. Our property is significantly higher than our neighbors and the road, so lowland isn't an issue. The soil is sandy with a clay based subsoil which can be rocky in areas. Amendments will be necessary to improve the soil I'm certain. I have 5 acres, with about 2 open acres, otherwise I am surrounded by hardwood trees and pines.
I was going to space them about 20-25' apart to provide enough room for the roots. And to be sure that I had sufficient pollination, I was going to plant a Dolgo Crab nearby.
As I'm typing this explanation, I'm thinking that my location won't support apple trees and perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part. There is a small apple tree on the property that I haven't identified yet, that seems to do OK. It might be a bi-annual bearer, although I don't know that to be a fact. Hopefully, this year I'll actually see some fruit so I can identify it.
I know my work's cut out for me. Back to the research...
Thanks everyone.
RVcook
If you are a do-it-yourself type, here is an easy do:
Take handsome scion wood from your neighbors tree now, storing it moistly in the frig. Pencil sized or slightly less.
When weather allows for digging, see if neighbors will let you dig some roots from their apple tree. All you need is some pencil sized root pieces, altho larger and smaller will work too.
Then, when spring comes, and apples are leafing out, do a graft of the scions you stored with the root pieces you dug. Put them in a protected garden area to grow for one year. Then transplant to their final destination in subsequent years.
I bet if you did 10 grafts like this, and only read about grafting for the next month, that 7 out of 10 would work for you!
I have done this sort of thing before. It will give you an exact copy of your neighbors tree.
[quote="plumfun":28etr3is]If you are a do-it-yourself type, here is an easy do:
Take handsome scion wood from your neighbors tree now, storing it moistly in the frig. Pencil sized or slightly less.
When weather allows for digging, see if neighbors will let you dig some roots from their apple tree. All you need is some pencil sized root pieces, altho larger and smaller will work too.
Then, when spring comes, and apples are leafing out, do a graft of the scions you stored with the root pieces you dug. Put them in a protected garden area to grow for one year. Then transplant to their final destination in subsequent years.
I bet if you did 10 grafts like this, and only read about grafting for the next month, that 7 out of 10 would work for you!
I have done this sort of thing before. It will give you an exact copy of your neighbors tree.[/quote:28etr3is]
Yes...I'm definitely a DIY person! Considering that I need to do the soil amending and prepping, your suggestion to do this type of grafting may enable me to get something going early and then allow me to transplant it later.
It would be wonderful to duplicate this sensational tree, and this may actually work while I figure out all the other "stuff."
May I ask...when you say 'handsome' scion wood, what exactly does that mean? I understand that I must take only last year's growth, but 'handsome?' Could you clarify?
Thank you.
RVcook
OK, handsome is a very subjective term. Just take scions from growth that has regularly spaced buds. Pencil size or less is very convenient. Larger stuff seems to be harder to carve and work with, at least for me.
You would not believe the ugly stuff I have received in the mail when trading scions with people! I mean downright iffy, maybe not even good for anything. Many times two and three year old growth, sometimes they thought fruiting spurs were good to include, gnarly looking stuff that had 20 buds in a half inch of stem, etc. Some of these can be salvaged, but it aint pretty! Anyway, handsome would be the opposite of that!
Rootstock samples need to have their orientation "remembered". By that I mean that the scion needs to be plugged into the root sample at the point of the root that was closest to the main trunk. I hope that came across clearly.
If you graft to the wrong end of the root, it will likely fail. I just googled root polarity graft and found nothing related. Just ask away if this is still confusing.
I have made apple and prune trees using this method. I really prefer to use the whip & tongue method when joining shoots to roots. And I only make a cut on the receiving root that will exactly match the size of my carved scion. This ensures maximal cambial contact. You can surely get away with sloppier technique, but I enjoy optimizing things once I understand the needs.
I am sure there is a proper name for this graft, but it escapes me.
Here is a good grafting demo for you to study: LINK
[quote="plumfun":h40zprsr]OK, handsome is a very subjective term. Just take scions from growth that has regularly spaced buds. Pencil size or less is very convenient. Larger stuff seems to be harder to carve and work with, at least for me.
You would not believe the ugly stuff I have received in the mail when trading scions with people! I mean downright iffy, maybe not even good for anything. Many times two and three year old growth, sometimes they thought fruiting spurs were good to include, gnarly looking stuff that had 20 buds in a half inch of stem, etc. Some of these can be salvaged, but it aint pretty! Anyway, handsome would be the opposite of that!
Rootstock samples need to have their orientation "remembered". By that I mean that the scion needs to be plugged into the root sample at the point of the root that was closest to the main trunk. I hope that came across clearly.
If you graft to the wrong end of the root, it will likely fail. I just googled root polarity graft and found nothing related. Just ask away if this is still confusing.
I have made apple and prune trees using this method. I really prefer to use the whip & tongue method when joining shoots to roots. And I only make a cut on the receiving root that will exactly match the size of my carved scion. This ensures maximal cambial contact. You can surely get away with sloppier technique, but I enjoy optimizing things once I understand the needs.
I am sure there is a proper name for this graft, but it escapes me.
Here is a good grafting demo for you to study: LINK[/quote:h40zprsr]
Your explanation of "handsome" is very clear in that what I am looking for is nothing too large that includes too many buds that may also include "older" growth. And CERTAINLY not something that looks like an arthritic fist!
As far as 'graft polarity' is concerned, I take that to mean that what was basically growing toward the top of the branch should be grafted with the scion STILL facing toward the top of the branch and definitely not flipped around so that the base has now become the top and the top end has mistakenly been grafted to the rootstock. Kind of like planting bulbs in the fall. If you plant them with the wrong end pointing down, you won't get anything!
Please let me know if I have misinterpreted your explanations.
After your last post, I did a little research to find out about grafting. I had NO idea that there were so many different methods. Thank you for the link, BTW. Your whip and tongue sounds exactly like what I found here...with pictures and an explanation to go with each one:
http://simple-green-frugal-co-op.blogsp ... trees.html
This really does not seem all that complicated...(remind me of this conversation when I come back looking for grafting advice in the event mine fail!) Nonetheless, I'm going to try and read up as much as possible on this so I have a good handle on doing it correctly.
Thank you very much for your suggestions. I really appreciate everyone's input from this forum. I may be back later with more questions, but if all goes well, I'll be back to post my results at a later time.
RVcook
Graft polarity includes polarity of the root pieces too. If you had a theoretical root 10 feet long, it would matter which end you put your "correct polarity" scion on. Scion goes on the end of the root that grew closest to the trunk.
I like to put the actual graft union just below soil level, that way there is no raw root sticking into the air. Sometimes light encourages rootpieces to sucker a bit, and I like to discourage suckering.
An alternative is to have the graft union above ground level, then heap a little soil around it to cover it up. When a few inches of growth have indicated a positive union, this mounded soil becomes negotiable. Sometimes if I am confident that the union is perfect, I will let the soil wash away with waterings, not bothering to keep it high. A vigorus growing scion helps keep root suckering down.
You can use regular old PVC electrical tape to bind the graft together strongly. But come mid to late summer, you should check on the unions to make sure the tape isn't trying to girdle the graft with constriction. If you see that happening, just slit the tape longitudinally to relieve the pressure. I did a bunch of apples last summer this way, but did not have to cut any tapes. I will do that when I dig them up this spring. Slitting tape is better than peeling it off. Peeling sometimes will take a whole swack of tender bark with it, and that is not optimum.
Or you can use electicians rubber splicing tape. It does not stick to tender bark as firmly, and has a habit of rotting off in the sunshine. It would be a little safer if you forgot to check for girdling.
Good luck to you! It is high excitement at a glacial pace. And can be quite low cost entertainment!
Plumfan,
Are you concerned that burying the union will result in the scion rooting too? Or is that part of what you are aiming for?
What type of rootstocks are you using for your root pieces? This sounds like something that might be fun to try. I don't have the space or patience for stooling or other rootstock generating techniques I've read especially considering that I don't really have a need for more rootstocks.
[quote="jafarj":nc96znde]Plumfan,
Are you concerned that burying the union will result in the scion rooting too? Or is that part of what you are aiming for?[/quote:nc96znde]
That could be a theoretical problem if I were trying to use M27 roots which restrict a scions natural inclination to zoom. But I am using seedling and Antonovka rootpieces, so there is no restriction.And probably no tendency to self root unless girdled long term.
I haven't had a problem yet with scions trying to root. I think long term you would have more of a problem when using dwarfing stock. You could defeat this by simply replanting when dormant so that the graft union is slighly above ground.
[quote="jafarj":nc96znde]What type of rootstocks are you using for your root pieces? This sounds like something that might be fun to try. I don't have the space or patience for stooling or other rootstock generating techniques I've read especially considering that I don't really have a need for more rootstocks.[/quote:nc96znde]
For the prune that I did this to, I don't know what kind of rootstock it was. I just liked the tree and decided to duplicate it. Whatever that rootstock was worked well.
The worst part of this process is finding nice rootpieces. They come in all sorts of angles and diameters and lengths. I have yet to find a "perfect" piece on anything other than a boughten 1 year old rootstock. But if there are enough energy reserves in the root (that's why we pick dormant roots) and a fair enough graft union, there is a high chance that the union will mend and grow. I emphasize that the wound on the root must closely match the wound on the scion, and be whip & tongued for best results. That last line sounded pretty deviant while I was typing it.
I want to talk about meeting you at the Scion Exchange/Propagation Fair.
Thanks
John S
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