I'm very interested to learn more about intersteming. I've seen many references to it here, and read through all the forums on it. I haven't read that much on grafting yet, so maybe this is a common topic in grafting books?
But I'm curious: how does it affect the form of the tree? For example, on an M111 -> M9 interstem, would you end up with a full M111 size root system? It would seem that the tree wouldn't be able to sustain that much of a root system, because of the M9 interstem. I'm just so curious how this all affects the tree.
I'm surprised people would do anything but intersteming if you truly get the advantages of a larger root system (less watering and staking) with the dwarfing qualities of the interstem. What are the downsides or tradeoffs?
And finally, is intersteming done mostly on apples? I've read about people using interstems on other fruits to deal with compatibility issues, but is it also used to retain the advantages of a larger tree?
And now that I know how to do a basic graft, can I just get a M111 and M9 at the fruit exchange, graft them together, and then bud something else to it in August (when I learn how to do so!)?
I'm full of questions. Thanks for your help!
Ask Ted Swensen at the Scion Exchange. You'll have to wait 15-20 minutes to even be able to speak to him. What he says will be worth more than any gardening class you could attend.
John S
PDX OR
You could probably also ask some other veterans, but I don't know exactly who.
I also read up on interstem grafting in the last couple of years, and decided that was the way to go for the apple trees I was starting last spring - the advantages are as you mentioned - larger roots so less water needed, and more stability; if you use a smaller dwarfing interstem that would normally need to be supported or staked then you don't need to. The main disadvantages seem to be cost and time, which are kind of the same thing - normally a nursery will plant out a rootstock in the fall; then come through and bud graft one bud of the chosen variety the next summer, then the next fall or spring cut off the rootstock above the new bud forcing it to now be the tree. Then let it grow - for an interstem tree; need to do this twice, or do grafting; so it takes longer and more labor, hence costs more - not enough to make it worthwhile for most commercial growers!
And most people going out and buying a fruit tree wouldn't know the difference! So it's a great idea, but limited useage - I grafted 11 apple trees on interstems last year, and have high hopes for them; and did a little risky by grafting everything at once, figured as long as most of the interstems "took" I'd be okay; but if the variety also took then I was ahead on the timeline, if not I hadn't lost anything really. Turned out that all interstems took, and only one variety didn't; so I only need to regraft one of my whole group of trees! I was mostly using MM111 with M9 interstems, but also did a few with Antonovka with Bud 9 interstems - all are only a year old; so not like I can really tell you the advantages yet!
Hope that helps - my copy of Warren Manhearts book helped convinve me, he has a bit of info about interstems; also found more scattered around the web.
Dave
lotus026@yahoo.com
Dave,
thanks for the expert advice. Now maybe I should know this, but living in dear/elk country – I’ve never considered such dwarfing. At the grafting classes I was asked (in a small group) if you can make ‘both’ grafts at the same time? The guy who asked actually said he’d heard/read that you can. In your description above I didn’t get that ‘that’ can be done.
If so – I’d at least like to try it. If someone brought a rootstock, piece of interstem and their selected scion to the propagation fair’s grafting tables - could/should I do both grafts then? -- And - should we charge them double? 
Maybe I should wait for your response, but it sounds like fun! Since you’d have no need for a ‘viable bud’ on the interstem; could you get away with leaving it ‘extra short,’ like just one bud..? Or, do you need a specific length of interstem to provide the desirable characteristics?
For years I’ve saved M9 tops for you guys - I’ll shut up and await your answer
Yes, you can do them both at the same time! I did that after talking with Ted Swenson, and he saw no reason it couldn't be done; mostly what you're risking is that since you're doing twice as much grafting there is twice as much chance of one not taking. Since I think my numbers were a total of 12 interstem trees and only one upper graft that didn't take and since that was the first time I'd ever grafted other than the HOS novice class last year; I'd say that I had pretty good success! Think most of the commercial places don't like it since budding is so much faster and less labor intensive, as well as better percentage of "take".
The recommendations I found for interstem length mostly seemed to be from 3 to 7 inches; though more towards the middle of that range - I found some references to experiments being done which had found that a 1mm interstem actually gave almost the full dwarfing effect of a much longer one; rather amazing! I used what I had; thanks to you saving the scraps of M9 & Bud 9 for me! Mostly ended up being around 4 to 5 inches; though some as short as 3 inches, it really didn't sound like the length was really critical. And if someone wants it done, no reason not to do it if they understand the slightly higher risk of it not taking; but also it should cost double - it's twice the work!
I wanted viable buds on my interstem just to make sure that it would grow in case the upper graft didn't take; once it did I rubbed off the lower buds, except on the one Hudson's Golden Gem (out of 2 at least!) that didn't take; I'll graft the top again this year.
Dave
Oops, forgot to mention that since I collected everything I could scrounge for leftover cut off rootstock tops at the grafting table at the Scion Exchange last year (I was collecting just M-9 & Bud-9 upper tips); I had lots of different sized interstems; more than I needed for the dozen trees I was grafting. So I could pick & choose a bit to match up sizes maybe a bit more closely than you otherwise would be able to; as well as most of the scionwood I also had more of a selection than I needed. Since I was a totally novice grafter, I was being way more paranoid about size matching on both top & bottom grafts than I'm sure I needed to be; so that probably helped my success rate! I had probably about a dozen leftover pieces that could have been used for interstems, but they were mostly on the short side; would have worked but I was trying to use about 4 to 5" ones; had mostly 3" ones left.
I found that using a small block plane really helped me making the first angled cut, I just hadn't acquired the knack of doing it fast and straight with a knife - I don't normally use a knife much everyday! And that the block plane did a pretty good job and I could control the angle better, and just check against each other to see how the 2 parts matched - guess it worked; since they mostly took! It is really whittling it down, but at least with the plane it's much more controlled than whittling with a knife would be - it worked for me!
Dave
Dave, excellent understandable answers, thank you.
OK, for those like myself, relatively new to Interstems, they apparently allow you to plant a very vigorous rootstock (I suspect a seedling or standard tree), that will really dig-in to harsh conditions. Then you graft the dwarfing rootstock onto that. Finally, you graft your desired variety (scion) on top of that; making two grafts instead of the usual one.
It should give you an extremely strong root system with a tree that doesn’t need staking or trellising due to a small and/or weak rootstock. Because you’re using a rootstock (interstem) that limits the flow of nutrients to the desired variety, it keeps the uppermost part of the tree to a desired size. - Right?
The bottle-neck would be acquiring the interstem wood. You’d ultimately have to buy two rootstocks; one for the actual root system, the second for it’s top 5 or so inches. And since few people outside of organizations and hobbyists like us are aware of these properties, and the additional expense and difficulty for a nursery attempting to produce or market such a tree - it’s use is extremely limited.
Again, Lotus, or Dave - yours are excellent descriptions of the process! I suspect your concern and diligence regarding matching rootstock-to-interstem-to-variety-scions made a difference; it’s the same thing I work hard to achieve when using the whip & tongue graft. ‘now’ should HOS begin marketing those M9/Bud9 tops
Jadeforrest: “This is fantastic information, and Viron, I might ask you to graft me an interstemed tree at the Fruit Propagation Fair!” - Get in line! - and don’t forget to pay twice!![/i]
“So far I have looked at apple tree combinations. Has anybody done this much with plums or pears or persimmons or kiwis, etc?” - Kiwis are on their own roots, so there wouldn’t be much need. Persimmon rootstock hasn’t been developed much beyond seedlings, or so I’m told; so little would be hardier than a seedling!
But this actually sounds like a good idea for any fruit trees with dwarfing rootstock. Again, if I’m correct in my interpretation: if one planted vigorous rootstock, such as a seedling, then grafted an interstem of the “dwarfing rootstock” above that - then the eventual plum or pear, you’d have a very strong root system feeding a moderate sized tree. Question: how well do these moderate sized trees support a vigorous root system; sap doesn’t only flow up?
I'm glad to hear everyone else is so interested in this too.
I did a cursory look online, and was surprised at how much I saw, but also how poorly distilled it is. It seems like most of this is geared towards commercial applications, and it's mostly research related?
Interesting that they do it on cherries: http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf ... rnr=169_43
This article was particularly interesting: http://www.hortnet.co.nz/publications/s ... ntstem.htm
For apples, traditionally interstems were used for compatibility reasons. Recently there has been a lot of interest in using interstems for improved disease resistance. That's less relevant for me personally, but interesting nonetheless.
...
Early work on interstem apple trees at East Malling (Parry and Rogers, 1972) and in the US (Carlson and Oh, 1975) showed that the length of the dwarfing interstem controlled the tree size. Hence a tree with a short interstem piece was larger than a tree with a longer interstem. Collaborative Dutch and Italian work found that interstem trees on MM.106 with a 35 cm interstem piece of M.9 were comparable in size to trees worked directly on M.9 (Wertheim, Morini and Loreti, 1989). Thus not only can the tree size be controlled by the length of the interstem piece but care must be taken in the nursery to ensure that this length is kept constant, otherwise variable tree size will be the consequence in the orchard.
I'm curious what source you found that said the interstem length was not significant. Perhaps something newer, as this is older research?
Also interesting that it does state some disadvantages: the biggest is that it takes longer to get going, but there is also additional interactions between three sets of genes. Not sure what that means.
There may also be a difference in fruit quality (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/conten ... mptype=rss) although it looks like they used a variety in the interstem rather than a standard rootstock. And most of the studies seem to not show any differences.
Here is a thread on sourcing interstem apple trees: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/loa ... 28054.html Apparently a few places do it.
Here is an article on persimmons on interstems(!) http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2 ... 201147.php Fruit quality is fine, trees are smaller.
For pears, interstems can have greater or less yield: http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf ... rnr=596_64
There's more, but basically based on what I've seen, I don't see any red flags. I'm in!
PS Anyone have access to http://www.actahort.org ?
Aaaaah... I've got half a dozen grafted apples on M9 in pots (for several seasons now) that I'm about to put into the ground as soon as the significant other finishes stretching stainless cable on the trellis. It sounds like I'd be happier if they, including the M9, were grafted to M111 (my two already in the ground apples are both on M111, and I'll never be able to properly prune them, or effectively pick them).
Should I just say my regrets to myself and plant the babies as is, or is it actually possible to graft the M9/scion combination after the fact to M111 rootstock?
Bass ackwards, I know, but that's where I am now... 
mh
Dave: would you recommend the B9 or the M9 rootstock for the interstem? Have you noticed much of a difference yet?
Anybody else have any experience or read anything about what would be best to use?
Marsha: I'm sorry, I have no idea what to recommend. I haven't read of any techniques where you can put a larger tree onto a smaller rootstock, except regrafting it or budding it. But I don't know much about this yet. Maybe after the M111 caught up you could?
Well, in normal nursery useage you wouldn't have to aquire the interstem; you would just bud it onto the rootstock and let it grow for another year, I was in a hurry so tried shortcutting - but I don't think that's the normal practice!
And Marsha, I wouldn't regret what you've already got started; there's a reason M9 is one of the most used commercial rootstocks around! Part of the reason I wanted the M111 or Antonovka was that I had no idea where my trees were going to end up being planted or on what kind of soil; we were still looking for land at that point - and had been for 18 months; took another 6 months before we found it - on Craigslist! So really no reason to throw away the time you've got invested in your potted trees now, it isn't like M9 needs lots of support - I mostly didn't want to even have to worry about the possibility or having to water if they ended up in a dry area.
I have no preference between the M9 & the Bud 9, think that as an interstem there's probably very little difference - except that the Bud 9 has redder bark! Most of the differences have more to do with what the roots do as well as the dwarfing effect; and since I'm not using either the M9 or the Bud 9 roots, I don't care about that:) Mostly the interstem conveys the dwarfing effect, and the M111 or Antonovka roots still have their own characteristics; which I wanted - also you can plant the interstem trees deeper; which helps prevent suckers from popping up!
Dave
Reading some on the various links about interstems - I continue to note how fearful people are about a tree getting too large. Coming into orcharding with deer and elk in the wings - I could never get away with small trees. But - I prune yearly; with 4 Gravenstein’s on standard rootstock - I can limit those puppies to whatever size I want! Allowing them to expand only one bud a year, while taking anything too long/high back to its beginning.
Considering the near fanaticism over the eventual structure of their trees, I can hardly imagine any of us, or various posters I’ve read, not pruning yearly..? Actually, my extensive pruning experience has me leaning toward bonsai! Perhaps I’m just not with the program here -- but please, tell me why a standard apple tree (for example) couldn’t be pruned to whatever height/size one wanted? You’d have the powerful root system along with the potential to give it the entire yard, or half the orchard if you wanted. Or, show it who’s boss
A friend has a series of apple & pear trees on likely 60% of standard (or store-bought rootstock) in rich bottomsoil that are a joy to step into. They’ll put on 5 foot suckers and look poised to take over the neighborhood, but hacking them back is no big deal. None are much taller than me, yet nearing 20 years old!
Viron: doesn't it take a while to get a standard tree fruiting, though?
Also, it seems like you might as well make less work for yourself? I'd love to spend a lot of time out there, and do plan to prune every year, but I also plan to have a lot of fruit going on competing for my attention!
Jade,
“doesn't it take a while to get a standard tree fruiting, though?”
I think fruiting depends on the specific cultivar, pruning (stress) and training. I’ve ‘heard’ of various dwarfing rootstocks supposedly speeding the ‘fruiting’ process, but if spur development is the essential element, I don’t know how that could be increased? A tour at the Corvallis repository had apple trees sprawled ‘un-pruned,’ so as to speed up fruit production, perhaps it was the lateral angles achieved by allowing them to sprawl sideways that caused spur production as opposed to vegetative growth?
"Also, it seems like you might as well make less work for yourself?"
I’m cutting every piece of new growth every year, those I don’t cut are taken out by larger thinning cuts. You’d have to do the same with a dwarf tree. Fewer cuts, fewer fruit? I don’t know that a dwarf tree would have any less volume once established, only less vigor (shorter shoots?). Bud spacing would be the same; they’re not ‘Spur’ dwarfs.
As mentioned, I don’t grow extremely dwarfed trees, on purpose at least. Having bought most from a nursery that’s been a High-Tec electronics plant for decades now, the Semi Dwarfs I got aren’t all that impressive, to me. There’s such a limit to their vigor that poor soil stunts them and they’re apparently incapable of filling the extra space I’d happily give them. But my few standard trees kick butt. As mentioned, digging into any soil conditions, filling any void, and responding nicely to as vigorous a pruning as I care to give them.
My newest plantings are on nothing less than 70% (of standard) dwarfing rootstock, with varying soil conditions; that’s become my only rootstock demand. If I could have put my Braeburn on standard - I would have! As is, baring vole damage, it just putts along. If I were on a city lot, without deer, elk, or bear predation, perhaps the little guys would be all I’d care to deal with. But having played with the big boys, I’ve learned it’s a game you can win. And the time I spend in my trees is generally a joy - sculpting away on a day like today 
Interesting thread here:
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/loa ... 21543.html
The link to Joereal's bark grafting tutorial shows step by step how to do the type of graft that I find most useful. The one thing I do differently is to put the rubberband first and then the parafilm over that. I skip the first application of parafilm.
I have an apple tree at home that has Winter Banana grafted to it followed by pear. I also have Fertility pear grafted directly to that same tree and then Golden Russet Bosc and some other pear onto that. I also have Winter Banana on my sister's European pear tree. It produced a single apple in its first full season. My intent was to graft a type of apple that she loves like Liberty onto that. Mostly its just the novelty of having apple, pear and quince on the same tree.
Hey Jade - excellent link and discussion! Wow - I’d love to get my hands on that ‘flowering pear!’ I’d plaster on about 4 ‘real pears,’ and a few Banana Apple’s for future apple production. And I’ve never heard of the trees blowing up, but then I’ve had no experience with them. One of the trees that came with my homestead, planted in the teens by my Great-grandfather, was a massive Winter Banana Apple. Reading the same about their ability to support pears, I lopped off a massive limb, rung it with Bartlett pears and watched them take off! Unfortunately, the tree was so massive and its location so prime I eventually removed it to expand a vegetable garden. And, Winter Banana apples were more a pollinator than a good apple.
And that - Joe Real - is Unreal! He’s posted here - photos galore! I’m afraid most of us are below his level of experimentation - though he did invite me to stop by if in Southern Cal. - thanks again for the link - I can see now why you’re hot on interstems and mixing ‘cultivars.’
It was interesting about the interstem length some felt necessary to achieve the desired dwarfing from 12 to 6 inches. I’d go with Joe (and Stark Bros.) @ 6’’ - and it reads like you feel about the same. My concern with 12 inches would be your desire to do both grafts at once - that of the bottom of the interstem not ‘meshing’ fast enough to provide the necessary ‘juice’ to feed such a long stem - then heal & seal the cultivar scion while keeping it’s buds happy.
But what a discussion! I’ve heard several of our contributors refer to Garden Web - but I’ve purposely avoided it because I spend so (perhaps too) much time here. For a time I answered orchard posts on Craig’s List - but some of the responses were so juvenile I stopped wasting time there.
Dang, I’m ready to do some serious bark grafting! That’s what I’d do to that flowering pear - gather up all those scions, wait till the bark’s slipping & dripping - then plaster it with inverted L’s and Crown Veneers till I feared there not being enough tree left to feed its root system. And, I’d likely remove one of her three trees. I wonder what she actually did? Asking how to graft, researching it online, then ‘going for it’ for the first time in such a big way sounds daunting.
Hey - what a day weather wise today! I’m expecting Daphne, Trilliums and Humming birds any minute ~
Warning: major Tangent below 
Jafarj:
“Mostly its just the novelty of having apple, pear and quince on the same tree.”
I suspect there’s some worth to that. At least it gets ordinary folks talking/thinking about how fruit trees are put together. It remains a fascination to me!
Once a water meter reader in a soil-rich area near Portland, long before my own grafting, I wondered - as I walked under countless flowing crab apples, plumbs, cherries and pears - if they could be grafted over to produce fruit..? It appears they can! -- In perhaps a new era of finance (stock's down 299 today - under 7K!) - does anyone think the public would be willing to convert their lawns to gardens and their flowering fruit trees to productive multi-variety fruiting trees..? Sounds like a full-time high-$ 3 month opportunity to me!
“Man - get a band of us together and do a block in a day - or a neighborhood on a weekend. No joke; cut haul & convert! Granted, the owners would have to understand the process, and realize it wouldn’t mean ‘instant fruit.’ But in a few seasons, on established trees - the value of their strip between sidewalk and street would be more desirable and productive than most! We’ll head out in bands; one experienced grafter and 2 or 3 ‘cutter’s’ learning our craft. They’d drag and haul off debris while said grafter cleft-grafts while dormant and bark-grafts as the season progresses. So ripping large hunks from ‘growing trees’ wouldn’t be so damaging as, as the slipping bark would make for smoother grafts.
Enough? Raised by Depression Era parents - I didn’t devote 'my space' to fruit trees and vegetable gardens for nothing! Who’s in 
I'm in if you'll have me. I've fantasized plenty about guerrilla tree planting, but never about grafting. Oh, I guess with owner permission, it wouldn't be quite so covert...
My planting strip is supporting several Japanese Maples that I will not pull out while they're healthy (which should be longer than I expect to live), but I love the thought of fruit in the right-of-way. There are an awful lot of ornamental crabs in my neighborhood - I was pruning them and others for a while as a volunteer for my neighborhood (Richmond) tree committee.
What a great way to learn the various techniques.
mh
”I'm in if you'll have me.”
Rent or invest in a limb-grinder then sell the mulch!
So Marsha, you’ve likely a better pulse on the inner-city than I do - do you think folks would understand the process, or value it enough to pay for the service..? Or, have the guts to watch their trees disassembled? There’d need to be a level of follow-up and training. And - likely a serious amount of vandalism with res, or disrespect to the new grafts. Dang
I once did some of my best work, repairing a large branch next to a sidewalk in suburbia - only to find on my second visit ‘kids’ had snapped off the scions, wrecking the project. I guess, like deer, elk or bear, on established trees (should I have stated a separate thread for this?) - we could always graft high! (-as in, higher up) And, use the ‘green’ version of Doc Farwell’s grafting seal - and no florescent survey tape marking our work - just make and leave detailed descriptions and maps of their new trees and varieties.
- just brainstorming here, but drastic times may call for drastic measures!
Back to interstem grafting: Viron, you'll be pleased to know the interstem you grafted at the scion exchange is budding (or at least the buds are turning green and starting to separate -- I think that's called budding as opposed to the practice of putting your own bud on a tree).
Viron did the double grafting for me at the scion exchange.
When I compare it to the other two apple trees I have that are not double grafted, there isn't really that much difference. It may be about a foot smaller than the other trees, and it got started a little later. But it's doing great.
I'm pretty sold on interstems. Even if it takes a year off your first fruit date (and I'm not 100% sure it will), it seems like long term it's such a reduction in hassle that it's worth it.
[quote="plumfun":mxxp032x]Best to let interstem get 15 to 18 inches long before putting on final cultivar, if you want to take advantage of the maximal effects the interstem has to offer. [/quote:mxxp032x]
That would likely preclude the ‘double grafting’ - unless you painted over the buds on the interstem to keep them from pushing, thus sending the nutrients directly to the scion or final cultivar on top. A hardy or well-rooted rootstock would likely be a plus. Otherwise you’d do the interstem graft, let it grow a leader and either Bud or whip & tongue graft it when dormant - losing that year.
… losing that year.
That is debatable. When you mount your final scion the next year, it is able to grow no faster than the rootmass will allow it. If you did a good job of sunning, feeding, and watering the summer before, you will have a nice rootmass to push that second scion. Did a measly job of building rootmass? Scion will grow accordingly.
To the extreme: One year I let a plum rootstock (5 years in ground) push a single bud. The whip grew at least 8 feet that summer!
Also had a green-grafted grape that, after having knitted the wound (and momma plant pruned waaaay back), grew a cumulative of 80 feet in one season! Full crop on that scion the next summer!
Rootmass determines all this.
Any thoughts on this? Would you do the first whip/tongue graft and then do the 2nd one at 90 degrees to that? Do you do both in the same direction?It probably doesn't matter but what are you opinions. Also, should I take pictures and make a webpage presentation of my attempt? Thanks.
[quote="gkowen":9i903ue4]How long was the stem before the scion? 6 inches? Thanks for the replies.[/quote:9i903ue4]
[quote="gkowen":9i903ue4]Any thoughts on this? Would you do the first whip/tongue graft and then do the 2nd one at 90 degrees to that? Do you do both in the same direction? It probably doesn't matter but what are you opinions. Also, should I take pictures and make a webpage presentation of my attempt? Thanks.[/quote:9i903ue4]
Greg, were those Q’s for me? If so, I don’t remember the interstem length of the graft I did, just did as requested. You’ll have to ask Jade about the length...
Secondly - and again, I don’t clearly remember; it was near the end of a (very) long day. I ‘think’ I did the top scion first (cultivar to interstem), afraid to disturb the interstem to rootstock connection if working from the bottom up. I believe I made all cuts first, ‘dry fitted,’ then wrapped. The hard part was wanting to talk with the two of our forum boys while concentrating on this duel graft - it’s always a blast to finally meet!
'Direction' didn’t seem a factor; just the usual attempt to match diameters and, in this case, leave the requested length of interstem. As the root energy would hopefully speed to the second splice (from the first), there’d be little reason to allow bud growth (beyond a few leaves) on the interstem, so no ‘aiming required.’
If you’d like to photograph the process, that could be interesting - just keep it clean – wouldn’t want to scare anyone off 
You mean I can't take photos of the stitches I require after I am done grafting? I am glad I have a brother who is a dr. He sews pretty well. Last year was my first year for not needing stitches twice during grafting season. I think my knife was dull. I will document it and do some followups. Might as well let others learn from my mistakes.
[quote="gkowen":vaf6agzi]Do you do both in the same direction?[/quote:vaf6agzi]
If by "direction" you mean polarity, yes direction is important. The interstem has a good chance of failing if you install it backwards, meaning distal end of interstem grafted to distal end of rootstock.
Distal end of rootstock should be connected to proximal end of any scion. Distal end of interstem connects with proximal end of final scion.
If you choose to graft a lengthy interstem the first year, I really don't see a problem if you can keep all the resultant interstem-buds rubbed out as they try to grow. The advantage of such a long piece might just be a greater nutrient and water reservoir, making it likelier to succeed.
I would probably carve out all the interstem buds with my grafting knife before grafting it up. Then cover the whole thing with grafting glue (Doc Farwell) to help hold in all the moisture.
I cannot think of a reason that orientation of graft cuts would make any ultimate difference. Maybe do a few one way, and a few the other to see?
I have read that full interstem effect is only achieved when the interstem is 15 to 18 inches long. So doing an inch or two is probably pi$$in in the wind!
Here's a picture of the grafting job Viron did. I guess it's about 9 inches long.
And in case it is lost in the FB cache:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4 ... =724538372
You can also see he did it in opposing directions. I looked back on my notes, and actually I'm not sure if the base is M7 or Antonovka. I thought it was Antonovka, but my notes say M7, and that sounds familiar. So this is: M7 + B9 + Honeycrisp.
That seems like a long interstem. Earlier in this thread someone said 4-7 inches. As I look around I seem to find 12-15 inches or so. I will have to do more research. Thanks for the heads up.
Yeah it is a long interstem. That is why I find it easier to just grow the interstem for a season or two prior to mounting the final cultivar.
If you are a nusery where $$ and turnaround is everything, you won't be able to stay in business. But for the homegrower, patience is everything.
Besides, on a new rootstock, you are not gonna get a 10 foot tree the first season, no matter what you graft on it!
The rootmass in the soil can only do so much from season to season until a critical mass is built and you are pruning wood off the top every year.
So I really don't see much detriment in terms of lag time of the tree to maturity, it's just a matter of priorities and where you are ultimately headed with your idea!
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but always time to do it right the second time. I used to hear that line when I swung hammers!
I am thinking this is going to get to be a long process. I will do some at one time and do some a year apart and keep notes and take pics and see what happens. I am just playing anyway. If it comes to nothing then its been fun. But if the test reveals some useful information then it can be shared for others to learn from. Thanks for all the inputs.
Hi, coming in late on this thread, but when I ran across it earlier this winter I was inspired to try grafting interstem trees all at once instead of over two seasons... which I probably would have done anyway because I'm such a rebel Anyway, the results of my experiment can be seen or followed on my blog here http://turkeysong.wordpress.com/2010/07 ... big-roots/ The short version is that it worked great. My few losses are probably due to weak scion wood and I don't think I would have lost any interstem grafts if I hadn't picked the shoots off the bud 9 and m 111 trying to get the hesitant scions to grow. The trees are growing very nicely in the nursery row and all but a few stragglers will be ready for the ground this winter. I'm left wondering why anyone would do it over two years as with proper precautions the interstem can be preserved even if the top fails. Maybe there is some economic/efficiency reason, but..... I'm unable to think of what it would be. Anyway, thanks for the information all!
“I'm left wondering why anyone would do it over two years as with proper precautions the interstem can be preserved even if the top fails. Maybe there is some economic/efficiency reason, but..... I'm unable to think of what it would be.”
If the interstem is done in a ‘commercial process’ it’s likely budded, requiring two years. You can’t make two bud grafts at once - and I don’t know how many ‘commercial grafters’ can/will do two bench grafts (whip & tongue) at once? I’ve watched migrant field grafters Bud, but never known them to bench graft in the dormant season.
Is there that much of a market for interstem fruit trees..? If so, it sounds like an excellent opportunity for us bench grafters to capture it
I tried double interstem grafts on 3 trees last year. On 2, only the first graft took. The 3rd both took. The Bud9 intertem is about 10 inches long. All 3 trees grew well but the double graft grew 50% more than the other 2. All 3 trees received the same attention as they are in one 4' x 4' raised bed. If I try it again, I will laways do both grafts at the same time.
I should add the double graft is about 6-7 foot tall after the first year.
I did think of a reason why nurseries would do the process in two years, which is if the bud 9 wood was in short supply. It only takes one bud to bud a tree, but a whole row of them for an interstem. It seems that this problem could be overcome if bench grafters saved their bud 9 waste wood, but that would require planning or networking or something.
My interstem trees did well and were just planted in the ground the last couple of days. They grew with nearly the vigor that I usually see in M111 grafted trees, but I can't say for sure that isn't because I took better care of the nursery row than usual or that any other unknown factor didn't account for the difference. I think its likely that they will be quite vigorous until they get a little bigger and then slow down. They were clearly more vigorous than the trees that were on bud 9 only.
I guess what I learned so far is:
Use good scion wood (I knew that, I just didn't have it. leave a shoot of bud 9 and or M111 to grow out until you are sure the grafts will take AND grow. That way you can still get a rootstock out of it if the top doesn't take. The extra shoots could always be pinched back a little if necessary to maintain dominance of the scion shoots, but rubbing them all out might do the tree in if the varietal scion doesn't take.
The M111 will infer vigor to the tree that partially counteracts the bud 9 dwarfing... at least initially anyway. It seems highly unlikely that the clear difference in height and girth between the directly adjacent blocks of 20 or so trees each... one of varietals on interstems and one of varietals on bud 9 roots only... was due to any other factor.
Choose varietals carefully. I ended up re-grafting a few of them because I changed my mind. This will set those trees behind the others almost a year. I certainly tried to choose carefully, but....
Next I'll just have to see how they grow. I had a heck of a time deciding on spacing. I ended up going with 8 feet for allegedly vigorous varieties and 6 feet for medium to weak varieties. I had to balance the possible effects of drought here in the summer months with little or no supplemental water against the invigorating effect of the M111 under-stock and the widely varying recommendations on tree spacing. There is generally little qualification in those tree spacing recommendations regarding even the most basic important factors like tree training styles. Yes, there is always pruning, but I'm sort of after miniature tree forms and don't want to be required to relentlessly prune back to control size. So, again we'll see. If it wasn't for the drought factor I probably would have gone to 10 feet just in case.... but then maybe I just got a little greedy for the extra four trees.
It seems a commercial operation could plant a ‘bud 9 tree’ (or three) and let it send up watershoots - heck - rootshoots would work too! They could harvest all the lengthy interstem wood they needed. But it would still require some far trickier grafting with a lower percentage of takes than simple budding.
The Make-A-Tree crew will be putting trees together this coming weekend at CCC - generally someone collects the bud 9 tops I believe. And at the grafting tables of the Scion Exchange we do our best to keep a bucket set aside for interstem extras. I don’t know where you’re located - but if you could contact any of the folks involved with either of these events (and provide the bucket) you’d likely secure some free interstem wood.
Otherwise, good points and great update - thanks ~
Thanks, I'm good on interstem wood for this year with a few left overs from some bud 9 stocks grown out this past season. it does seem preferable to make good fits in bench grafting to insure a fast growing healthy tree. I've noticed that good fitting grafts, especially whip and tongue, with maximum cambial contact really do seem to fare better in the first year than offset grafts with mismatched wood sizes that take longer to heal. And I guess that's just what we should expect. I suppose that finding well matched understocks, intermediates and scions could be another limitation not present in the two year budding system. Regardless, it seems that if good material can be secured doing it all in one year is worthwhile for small scale work.
Just a few further thoughts and comments. I still get quite a few hits from this thread off the link to my blog post. I also get a surprising number of hits from searches for interstem grafting. I've updated the post a couple times to include my experience so far. One thing I feel pretty sure of now, is that scion length is not that important in regards to success of the graft if measures are taken to prevent dessication. There is more danger of the graft moving with a long interstem or scion, but that can be worked around with splinting. Removing all buds on the interstem and painting it with wax, or grafting paint, or wrapping with parafilm should control the moisture loss. I don't think the multiple grafts are much of an issue either. I grafted 6 dormant grafts in a row on the same stock, just to see if it could be done and they all made it. That's all assuming good stock, scion and interstem material as well good aftercare and a bit of luck with the weather., but I think it's all pretty doable. I can see why commercial nurseries might do it in two years, but the rest of us probably don't need to.
http://turkeysong.wordpress.com/2010/07 ... big-roots/
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