I have Satsuma, Santa Rosa and Elephant Heart. I get shy production from the first two and so far none from the Elephant Heart. This year appears to be the same way, with Satsuma being the most reliable. Plenty of blooms on the Elephant Heart which stands right next to Santa Rosa and they bloom at the same time. It's only their 4th year so maybe some more time will be needed.
Anyway, are these types of plums not reliable in the Northwest?
How are yours doing? In general? This year?
Tstoehr;
good questions? That's the nearly identical lineup to what I've dealt with for years. Once thinking my Ozark Premiere (all of these being 'Japanese plums' as opposed to 'European prunes') plum was an "Elephant Hart," by its characteristics, it turned out to be such a poor producer that I reluctantly dug it out last year. That was a very sad act on my part --- it was, of my 27 'fruit trees', the only one I'd actually grafted from rootstock for myself... To keep from doing that, I'd researched bloom-times and compatibility for the Ozark Premiere; coming up with Burbank's "Red Ace." So I planted one. After growing an entire tree, about a 6 year process, nearly 'next door' to the Ozark (30 feet away), the Red Ace is only a bit more productive... So, poor production with your "Elephant Heart" sounds familiar.
My original trees were a Shiro, and a Santa Rosa. The Santa Rosa set consistently heavy, and I believe the two were 'advertised' to complement (pollinate) each other; but I never cared for the bland Santa Rosa's, who, as I remember, actually set too heavy, all ripened at once, then dropped ... So 'it' became my Ozark Premiere (a scion from a Sauvie Island orchard managed by an uncle).
Actually, I think Japanese Plums are one of most under-utilized of fruiting trees. For some reason (perhaps because they grow so vigorous that you can't seem to hurt them) they are 'easy' to top-work by grafting. So I took my Shiro tree (where a little go a long long way) and added a main limb of Satsuma. Satsuma will remain a 'must-have' for me; though an entire tree is too much! But being as they're my first plums to ripen, they're always welcome. They also have a long 'eatable' lifespan; firm & tart, to soft & sweet! And, they set very heavy, often too heavy!
But with this entire hodgepodge within steps of each other ... the pollination is, as you described, iffy. I've not even looked at mine this season; as last night was 'semi-frosty' --- I don't know if I want to... Matching bloom-time, as with all cross-pollination, looks essential for fruit set; and I have noticed the best of these producers always bloom a good week before the later, or poorer setting varieties. I have tried / intended to graft pollinator branches to my Red Ace ... but don't know which books / charts to trust --- the Ozark - Red Ace combo was worthless. Are they "Triploids?"
The last decent crop of Red Ace's had me grabbing some rootstock at the Scion Exchange to propagate a few more --- while they were ripe - they were the best eating fruit on the place! I was ignoring a Desert King fig 'next door' as I scrounged for fallen Red Ace's every morning ... but consistency is extremely poor, and of course, last year was a total bust~
OK Ted --- give it to us straight?
Tstoehr and Viron;
I am just getting into plums and prunes. I do not know if any of the Japanese plums (Prunus salicina) are triplods (sterile). But all Japanese plums require a polliantor. Since all (and I do not like to use the word all because I am sure not all require a pollinator nor do all bloom within 4 days of each other) anyway all Japanese plums bloom close enough to each other to pollinate each other.
Japanese plums will NOT pollinate European plums/prunes (Prunus domestica), nor will European plums/prunes polliante Japanese plums.
Pollination may be a problem because of pollinators or late cold weather. A technique I copied from some fruit growers near Fields, OR was to hang the C9 (larger bulbed) Crhistmas lights in the trees at bloom time. The heat generated by the larger bulbs may be just enough to keep the blooms viable. It also keeps the neighbors talking about the nut next door that does not have any Christmas lights on at Christmas.
For sucessfull frut set we have two steps that must occur. I call it WHAM - BAM factor. WHAM is polliantion – followed by BAM, fertilization.
You can have great polliantion, followed by no BAM,no fruit set. The pollen tube must grow to the egg to deposit the sperm. If the weaher turns cold after polliantion and the temp. drops too low (42?F for apples) the pollen tube grows so slow the eggs die before the tube grows into the ovary, depostiting the sperm
Hope this is not too confusing.
Any Questions???
Ted
I might have a long story too.
I live in the same area and so should be having the same results as you all but I'm not. I have had two 'shiro' bought grafted on 'St. julien' rootstock and had planted them here in Vancouver WA (close to your location) since 1993 and it has given abundantly from the first year and almost every year there after for 12 of 13. Until recently I had duduced that japanese (shiro) plums were a self compatible group as going by what was labeled. Outside of any perfect banana (plum) belt I bet the label was wrong. Fortunately researchers don't rely on such wrong assumptions, they test and prove. See as such "forum comments" regarding a similar situation to where only in the end, it was found that wild plums were doing most of the pollenating.
So recently upon thinking about this, and looking into a bit of fruit tree breeding, I decided to look around for more answers....... Then upon finding a Fact Sheet issued from Ontario Canada showing the myrobalan plum being the viable option for Shiro (and others listed). Around here the myrobalan plums are very common on streets and yard trees. They are the ones usually raised up under various trade names, all mostly flowering only. Most have red leaves and they bloom anywhere from ruffled pink to simple almost pure white.
So it was for me to find out that such flowering red plum trees existed here on adjacent lots all along. Would this be good luck or what? Perhaps you might have not been as fortunate that way?
As I'm learning my way along, I'm beginning to wonder if the hard pruning that I've done in winter is counterproductive to my plum production. This year I've done light summer pruning, thining only. No more pruning will be done on my plums before summer of next year. I suspect this will help a great deal as the heading-back pruning in winter was likely stimulating furious foliar and branch growth at the expense of fruiting. Time will tell.
I resisted showing the picture in my last post but now that you talk about pruning, lots of it done here, we have always pruned for height but only lightly during the growing dry months. By avoiding dormant pruning you always have a full bloom. This recent photo was taken after all plums were long gone:
[url:ey2r5053]http://home.comcast.net/~hollaus/HOS/shiro.htm[/url:ey2r5053]
You guys are good! Thanks for the extra info and links ... more homework... And Rooney - beautiful trees!
Interesting info on the pollination of 'my' Burbank (Red Ace), Japanese Plum. I found the following description quite accurate: "Burbank; The good quality plum is round, dark red, medium sized, juicy, aromatic and clingstone. It ripens unevenly, beginning in late August at Vineland."
With what appeared to be a bumper crop this Spring, still mysterious to me - all but 10 seemed to have vanished...? Whereas my Satsuma / Shiro tree was full as usual, my "Burbank" ended up nearly barren. But looking at the pollination chart from above, it's listed as compatible with every plum but itself ... though I notice here it blooms slightly later... And, I'm pretty isolated here, with no flowering plums lining the gravel county road.
I was giving the same consideration to my pruning regimen. I've been examining, as I diligently harvest those few Red Ace's, just where on the branch they're forming. Each was from a very delicate, perhaps 8 inch twig, which I leave plenty, as I prune very heavy on all my Japanese plums... Keep us posted on any pruning modifications that leave a better crop; though we're not getting any younger - my goal are more of these delicious plums. ...And those few I've collected in the last couple weeks have been magnificent - but what a variation in ripening time! Some fall, ripe; while others hang, rock-hard and green...?
Guess if worst comes to worse, I could end up like Thomas Jefferson; an old man, yet a young Gardner!
It's hard to beat Elephant Heart. One of the finest plums I have ever tasted. I haven't tasted any here in Portland though. It seems to require considerable heat to do well. Perhaps the south side of your house or your garage could provide it with some extra warmth. I planted one here, a few years ago, but it promptly died.
Shiro and the myro's have fascinated me for years. I am starting to be of the opinion that the more myro in a plum hybrid, the more disease resistant it is here in the PNW. It also seems like a good dose of myro in a hybrid lends to more pollen compatibility, even to itself, making a plum a self pollinator. Here are some of the genetics for any of you interested in such:
Sprite & Delight = cerasifera x Japanese plum cross
Methley = salicina X cerasifera
Shiro = simonii X salicina X cerasifera X munsoniana
Obilnaja = salicina x cerasifera
Prunus x Cistena = sandcherry x cerasifera
Krymsk VVA-1 = P. tomentosa x P. cerasifera
Of course, cerasifera = myrobalan.
I notice that my Methley and Delight are flowering together, and are mere feet apart. Will be saving and planting out seed of that hybrid.
Delight is a fairly long hanging plum, compared to the rest of the myro's, and may be an interesting parent in a Delight x Emerald Beaut cross, perhaps lending some disease resistance from the myro side.
[quote="Rooney":1hv7770w]
I live in the same area and so should be having the same results as you all but I'm not. I have had two 'shiro' bought grafted on 'St. julien' rootstock and had planted them here in Vancouver WA (close to your location) since 1993 and it has given abundantly from the first year and almost every year there after for 12 of 13. Until recently I had duduced that japanese (shiro) plums were a self compatible group as going by what was labeled. Outside of any perfect banana (plum) belt I bet the label was wrong. Fortunately researchers don't rely on such wrong assumptions, they test and prove. See as such "forum comments" regarding a similar situation to where only in the end, it was found that wild plums were doing most of the pollenating.
So recently upon thinking about this, and looking into a bit of fruit tree breeding, I decided to look around for more answers....... Then upon finding a Fact Sheet issued from Ontario Canada showing the myrobalan plum being the viable option for Shiro (and others listed). Around here the myrobalan plums are very common on streets and yard trees. They are the ones usually raised up under various trade names, all mostly flowering only. Most have red leaves and they bloom anywhere from ruffled pink to simple almost pure white.
So it was for me to find out that such flowering red plum trees existed here on adjacent lots all along. Would this be good luck or what? Perhaps you might have not been as fortunate that way?[/quote:1hv7770w]
[quote="plumfun":38kijy49]It also seems like a good dose of myro in a hybrid lends to more pollen compatibility[/quote:38kijy49]
Agreed. Luther Burbank knew of these attributes and made good use of this knowledge when making difficult inter-species crosses with prunus. This also applies to grafting. Of grafting the most interesting to me would be 2 patents on myro clones for the purposes of using them as interstems thus allowing peaches as rootstocks for sweet cherries for the first time. Not so many years ago they even studied a 'pissardi' myro grafted to an apricot seedling rootstock which got transformed from apricot in the root sections to become hybrid material.
Your other observation implying myro plum being adapted here west of the Cascades must be correct, 'Thundercloud' and other red leaf myros are still majestic and of good health in the landscape. I think this is probably because you would find the wild ancestry being traced to UK.
What I wouldn't give for a rootstock of Adara!! It is sweet cherry compatible Prunus cerasifera. You could put most anything on it.
Adara seems to be a suitable rootstock for cherry cultivars to avoid root asphyxia in heavy soils and/or under flood irrigation conditions, where other rootstocks fail to survive. Similarly, it also performs well in calcareous soils, which are not favourable for other cherry rootstocks.
I found some other prunus lineages in my notes that may be of interest to others who graft or breed:
Kuban 86 (Russia) P. Cerasifera x Persica
Krymsk 1 V-V-A-1 (Russia) P. Cerasifera x Tomentosa
Krymsk 2 VSV-1 (Russia) P.Incana x Cerasifera
Krymsk 5 (VSL-2) (Russia) Prunus fruticosa x Prunus lannesiana
Julior (France) P. Instititia x Cerasifera
Pumiselect (Germany) P. Pumila
Barrier 1 (Italy) P. Persica x Davidiana
Cadaman (France) P. Persica x Davidiana
Ishtara (France) P. Cerasifera x Salicina
Myran (France) P. Cerasifera x Salicina
Jaspi (France) P. Domestica x Salicina X Spinosa
I have Santa Rosa and an unnamed red leafed (I assume) Japanese plum. They both set fruit great every year. The Santa Rosa took a few years to grow up. I bought it bare root at Fred Meyer for $7, so I expected it to grow more slowly. One word of caution: DON"T PRUNE YOUR PLUMS IN THE RAIN! They are very susceptible to getting diseases that way. I prune the Santa Rosa aggressively after the plums have come off. It works well for me. They produce a lot of branches, etc. It's work, but worth it.
The other trees were in the neighbor's yard and she said I hate those trees. I said, "I'll take them." It was a tremendous amount of work but theyr'e great. They both overproduce frequently. The unnamed one breaks branches every year due to oversetting fruit. We have to make fruit salad, jelly and a few other things because we get too many plums. The neighbors eat a lot too. They're not good for drying, although we have made good plum crisp out of them. Had to adjust the recipe because they are more watery. We have a great climate for plums. I have had no problems with these plums. They're easy and yummy. I love the flavor of Santa Rosa: Sweet and complex with a tart skin. NOt bland at all in my opinion. I think European plums are bland.
My two cents.
JOhn S
PDX OR
Excuse me for bumping up an old thread, but I have been seeking answers concerning just this subject. I bought and planted my first plum tree (shiro) last year and was excited to see if I might get fruit as it is starting to flower. It clearly says "self-fertile", but I have been reading up on it a little late and most say that it is not. Could it be this "myro" thing that some of you were talking about that makes this indeed self fertile.
I was going to go in search of a "mate" for it tomorrow. I believe there are plenty of Santa Rosa trees around at about the same age as mine.
To be safe, should I add another Japanese plum and is Santa Rosa a good choice?
John (in Aberdeen WA area)
…Did “tomorrow†come and go..? I originally had an isolated pair of Santa Rosa and Shiro ‘Asian’ plums. They crossed extremely well, but I didn’t care for the Santa Rosa fruit as much as others I’d discovered so replaced it with a non-compatible Asian cultivar, Ozark Premier. Apparently having come full circle … I’m now looking to graft a limb of Santa Rosa on as a pollinator to several other Asian plums…
Shiro is likely the most consistent of the Asian plums; a past friend had an orchard full of them, selling them for years to a commercial processor in Newberg (Ore.). I don’t know what her main pollinator was … her menagerie exceeded my own! But I’ve a combo of Satsuma and Shiro that sets very well most years. On the same tree, it’s interesting (as has just happened) to watch the Satsuma flower’s come on a week before the bulk of the Shiro’s; but with no other sources of pollen, there seems enough of an overlap to work out just right. …Many years I’ll thin for a couple hours inside that one tree – so maybe it’s a good thing I don’t get total pollination 
So, Santa Rosa would be an optimum choice to pollinate your Shiro. “Easy†to graft… you can always add an additional variety to Asian plums… It’s a great age to turn ‘one limb’ of a 1 – 2 'year in' plum tree into a permanent pollinator; so you may consider a limb of Satsuma. The Home Orchard Society gives Budding (Bud grafting) classes every summer, prior to optimum budding time. I believe they’re given at our Arboretum, where you’ve access to several varieties of ‘budding sticks’… I may be there myself this year, looking for some Santa Rosa’s 
Viron,
Thanks for your response and tomorrow is still today. LOL I will see what I can find and will probbly just plant the Santa Rosa if they are still around to see if I like them.
I would love to learn about grafting as I am always running into these issues. For now until I have more time in my life for what I want to do over what I have to do, I will probably just add another tree. Space is not an issue as I have 8 acres and only about 6 fruit trees so far. Don't you love a blank canvass?
John
Have not been able to find a good looking Santa Rosa so far, but found a nice Burbank. Internet info says it can be polinated by Santa Rosa or vice versa, but does not say if it will polinate the Shiro. Found Elephant Heart and Toku and Beauty, also. Keep searching for the Santa Rosa? What do you think?
John
They took down the online fact sheet when I posted it on this thread back in September 2006. Oh well. They must have replaced the file and updated it with a different name so even though that makes the old link broken here's the new one;
[url:1e8ilkq1]http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/fruit_home.htm#pollination[/url:1e8ilkq1]
Apparently Burbank is lised there and will work to pollinate crops with Shiro and vice-vera.
Idyllwild
simplepress
jafar
Marsha H
Viron
John S
1 Guest(s)