Considering the following – “With their complex mixture of sweet, sharp, and bitter elements, the traditional European cider varieties have proven themselves the ultimate apples for this purpose. Unfortunately, most of them are not very good for other uses, particularly fresh eating.†– I’m advising a young couple establishing their fruit orchard. One of their desires is to eventually produce apple cider (fresh juice to start). I’ve suggested they plant a “bitter†apple, to provide the blend described above.
Question: can anyone suggest an ‘eatable,’ readily obtainable variety that would do the trick? Something like Granny Smith or earlier? …I know … ‘eating apples’ are pretty far from a true ‘bitter’ cider apple, but as they cringed when I suggested a ‘designated (too bitter to eat) cider apple,’ their next question was just that…
Secondly: They’ve several established and productive crab apple trees; would crabs provide the “sharp and bitter elements†necessary for a good blend?
Lastly: If one were to plant just one “Bitter†Cider apple – which would you recommend, and where would you find a cultivar? Any suggestions welcome!
I have a very strong suspicion that the cider they're talking about is hard cider. The alcohol-forming fermentation process creates something very different than you taste in the fresh fruit. Kingston Black is one of the classic "bittersharp" cider apples, and supposedly so full of tannins and acids that it is inedible. I tasted what was supposed to be a Kingston Black in the last All About Fruit show, and it was neither bitter nor sharp - it was bland and mealy. It was either a very bad year for that tree, or misidentified.
I used to know a cider maker with an orchard of a huge number of the classic varieties of cider apples. He seems to have given up, but his web site still exists - White Oak Cider. Alan Foster's page on the Kingston Black, one of only three apples that will produce a great cider without blending, is also still out there, probably as a cobweb site.
The orchard must still be there, but I don't know if he still owns it. See if I get an answer to my note - if I recall, this was a very low-tech operation, with no love of computers.
mh
Viron,
I have heard of people using crabapples as the bitter/sharp flavoring in apples. I think people have different tastes. For example, I have purchased Callaway Crab and I have grafted some other crabapple varieties for fresh eating in the last few years. I like the more complex flavors of the crabapples and like most Americans, I'm not terribly skinny. Many thin people I've noticed eat lots of flavor, not lots of food, so that's what I'm aiming for. I think that crabapples work for bitter/sharp, and in my case, for fresh eating. Some crabapples taste horrible, but not all.
My two cents,
John S
PDX OR
Marsha, thanks! Actually, these youngster’s were simply thinking “juice,†our Society Cider Experts now have me thinking Cider if - Hard Cider 
" title="Laughing" />
Interesting, if discouraging info on the "Kingston Black"… “it was neither bitter nor sharp†– Yuck!
You knew Alan Foster? Impressive! We met, and instantly hit it off as he gave a wonderful presentation on Cider Apples, including his European adventures acquiring them! That was around 8 years ago at a well-attended meeting of the Luelling Memorial HOS chapter in Yamhill County. I toured his orchard within the week, linking up with fellow HOS members … but have lost contact. I glanced at his link and will follow up for sure, thanks again!
thanks John: that’s also good information on the Crabs! I’ll pass that on to my young friends. They’re having a difficult time envisioning a ‘stand alone’ tree of apples too ‘bitter’ to eat! The crab apple option may work best for them.
Now if “I†only had some crab apples ~ I’ve mentioned it before around here, but the family homestead I’m on had a beautiful massive and extremely consistent & productive ‘seedling’ apple tree. …Until I decided to change it over to something more eatable. It was far too large to convert, even plastered with inverted “L†and crown-veneer grafts -- so it’s since been replaced with a Granny Smith. No complaints with the Granny – but I bet those seedling apples – too bitter to eat - would have been near perfect for the large batches and blends of fresh juice I make… …Though it would have been a decade or so before I went into juice production, that’s one reason I ‘do what I do’ around here - to keep others from making large mistakes.
if I remember correctly. I was just saying that most crabapples, even the fresh eating kinds, have a more complex flavor than regular size apples. Cider is made to taste, although I have met people who made cider out of just one apple. I didn't think the flavor was very interesting.
There is also the classic difference of those who like a more fruity flavored cider, like the Hornsby's you buy in the store, which has apple juice added, or those who like the more dry flavor or more fermented cider, which to me tastes like hard alcohol without much of an apple flavor.
John S
PDX OR
Thanks for the answer on the size cutoff.
Anyone who likes Hornsby's is welcome to it. I like my hard cider dry, and while you do indeed taste the alcohol, I certainly taste apple. (In contrast, I tried pear brandy, which smelled of pear and tasted of nothing but alcohol.) Of course, I've been diabetic for 40 years and have come to like some things that are less sweet.
All right Viron,
I can't think of any bitter cider apples that are good eaters right off, there are some that are supposed to be good for cooking. I'll try to look around my literature and find you a good answer. I like to eat Hewe's Crab (Virginia Crab) and Kingston Black but most peaple wouldn't like them much. Most of the best ones for cider aren't much good to eat.
(Marsha, I think I picked the Kingstons that were on the tasting table this year, they should have been good, try them again next time)
If I could plant only one bitter sweet cider apple it would be Dabinett, A good annual bearer, disease resistant and durable , it will add the needed tannin to any blend you'ld want to ferment and it makes very fine cider allby it's self. A bitter sweet adds depth and body to juice blends as well.
Many crabs have enough tannin as well, but they are usually quite high in acid which makes them hard to blend with desert fruit for hard cider.
I,m going to see Alan tomorrow I'll ask him what he thinks, Shaun
Thanks Shaun… hated to twist your arm~ ...But you’re my go-to cider-guy! (& Todd).
Your suggestion of “Dabinett†sounds like a good one, do you expect any wood will show at the Exchange? …If so, I’d likely make it a ‘gift’ for my young friends' orchard … and while I’s at it - stick a piece on out here 
Otherwise - see you Saturday?
Idyllwild
simplepress
jafar
Marsha H
Viron
John S
1 Guest(s)