I want to plant a dwarf fruit tree (prefer cherry as our family loves them like candy). I was advised to try a lapin or stella (to self pollinate) on gisela rootstock to keep it short. The only spot with enough sun is about 5 feet back from the street power lines, so the tree needs to be under 15-20 feet tall.
When I called the nursery, the person who answered said that even on gisela stock, a cherry tree can grow up to 30 feet tall and that "there is really no such thing as a dwarf cherry."
Is this true? Are my dreams of fresh cherries straight off the branch shattered?
Thanks,
Robin
There are at least four Gisela rootstocks available commercially. I think the most dwarfing readily available one is # 5. There is a unserved market for dwarf cherries and other rootstocks are likely in development if not in the commercial pipeline.
Scion vigor will effect tree size too. See reference below. There a 5 year old tree is 3.1 meters high -- under you limit.
I understand pie cherries are generally less vigorous than sweet. A pie cherry not given full sun will be slower still.
Planting in a container might be another way -- but I'm getting out of my depth there. I had dinner in a beer garden next to a great containerized pie cherry in Germany a few years ago -- old, knarled, trained as a step over. Less than 9 ft tall (soil level was 3 ft above grade -- so this was a < 6' tree)
See: http://www.umass.edu/fruitadvisor/fruit ... 1n2/a7.pdf
Rufus, thanks for the Gisela rootstock link; and yes, it looks like “G-5†gives a much smaller tree than ‘G-6.’ Question: where / how could a person procure ‘one’ G-5 Gisela rootstock?
Robin, do you plan to prune? If so, you can keep a tree near any size you want! I’ve got a seedling cherry tree in an open section of woodland that I hack back as needed, to keep it from shading some nearby apples. I can’t seem to kill it! …Though I haven’t really tried, just keeping it pruned for height, strength and flowers / cherries (for the birds) has been relatively easy.
I’ve also kept two Gravenstein apple’s on seedling rootstock – about as vigorous a combination as there is in the apple kingdom – to manageable heights with loads of fruit by yearly pruning. Yes, they’ll both put on healthy growth, but you can easily thin and prune to whatever size you like. Consider the art of “Bonsai,†– to me, the same thing – only easier!
I never let my best cherry trees get over 12 tall, and back when I planted them their rootstock (whatever it was) could hardly have been described as dwarfing… If you want something maintenance free, cherries aren’t it; but if you stay on them (sprays included), they’re doable.
[quote="Viron":ezzcqzqw]Rufus, thanks for the Gisela rootstock link; and yes, it looks like “G-5†gives a much smaller tree than ‘G-6.’ Question: where / how could a person procure ‘one’ G-5 Gisela rootstock?
Robin, do you plan to prune? If so, you can keep a tree near any size you want! I’ve got a seedling cherry tree in an open section of woodland that I hack back as needed, to keep it from shading some nearby apples. I can’t seem to kill it! …Though I haven’t really tried, just keeping it pruned for height, strength and flowers / cherries (for the birds) has been relatively easy.
I’ve also kept two Gravenstein apple’s on seedling rootstock – about as vigorous a combination as there is in the apple kingdom – to manageable heights with loads of fruit by yearly pruning. Yes, they’ll both put on healthy growth, but you can easily thin and prune to whatever size you like. Consider the art of “Bonsai,†– to me, the same thing – only easier!
I never let my best cherry trees get over 12 tall, and back when I planted them their rootstock (whatever it was) could hardly have been described as dwarfing… If you want something maintenance free, cherries aren’t it; but if you stay on them (sprays included), they’re doable.[/quote:ezzcqzqw]
I have just taken to buying Krymsk-5 stock from Raintree. It is very difficult to buy Giesela stock unless one has signed all sorts of agreements and paid a 10,000 dollar licensing agreement. That is the reason I am told it is hard to find for us one-sy and two-sy guys!
If you were absolutely intent on getting Gisela stock, you could always buy a cherry tree on it from a nursery. That is one way to get it.
There is a technique called bark-inversion (click it) that will dwarf a tree for 4 or 5 years at a whack, before you have to do it again.
Just to close out the thread: by commercial for the home orchard, I did mean nursery produced complete trees (I bought a 5 variety Gisela-5 for ~$50 from a nursery in WA.) I imagine any new commercial rootstock is likly to have prohibitive licensing fees and per plant costs for the rights to propogate it.
I like the pruning / inversion ideas.
About 5-6 years ago HOS got a bunch of Gisela 5 rooted cherry trees, we sold them at the Scion Exchange. I bought 5 and planted them in partial shade on the north side of a three story house, they're doing pretty well. The biggest one is less than 10 feet tall and I have pruned them very little. I had a nice crop last year (starlings and the neighbors got most of them). Cherries are one of the few fruit trees that do well in partial shade, so plant them where ever you have space.
We purchased some Krymsk rootstock that is to small to graft this year, hopefully it will grow some this summer and we will have it for Make-A-Trees and to sell at the Fruit Propagation Fair next spring.
We keep our Sweetheart and Rainiers at about 12ft; anything over 17ft and it gets into our bird net. You just need to maintain the vigor properly and lop it off at the height you want assuming you are cutting into two year old wood. I would also recomend a multiple leader system...probably three or four.
So here is what you do...
Year 1
You plant the tree and then head it off at about two feet. The first year it will grow several limbs from that cut.
Year 2
You select the three or four most equal limbs to keep and prune off the rest. With what you have left you need to get them so they are spread open to about 18in-2ft apart in the center...forming a small vase.
Then go ahead and select about four buds on each leader where you would like your main horizontal limbs and place a small hacksaw score into the bark right above each bud. You only need to get into the bark...DON'T GO TOO DEEP!
Year 3
Cut off any limbs that are 50% the size of your leaders. Score again where you want limbs. Hopefully, the top of your tree is now taller than you want it...Don't cut it yet.
Year 4
Cut the tree at the height you want it...assuming it is in year 2s growth. if it is in last years growth, don't cut it yet.
Year 5
Maintain branches and tree height.
It is pretty easy really...
Thanks for the continued posts. The step-by-step pruning will a huge help. Thanks!
I spoke with a nursery today that was saying that they do Colt rootstock (because of the expense of "buying into" the gisela stock license as mentioned in another post). Additionally, her perspective was that because our climate can be tough of cherries (?), the more vigorous rootstock (semi-dwarf versus dwarf) would be better for a tree to withstand/bounce back from disease and stress anyway, and to just prune it to be small (as in the last post).
Side question - this is my first fruit tree. I had also been considering pears, but my husband LOVES cherries so I dove down that route of investigation. But perhaps I should ask - are Bartlett pears a lot easier to grow/maintain (without sprays)? Am I asking for trouble to try cherries first? And, if I should go the pear route - can I suitably dwarf it through similar pruning techniques?
Thoughts?
Thanks! Robin
To answer part of the question, yes, pears can be maintained using the same techniques.
However, I don't think pears are as easy as cherries. To me, the pruning is more difficult. Also, pears have a whole different set of pests.
The primary pests in cherries are rain, birds and cherry fruit fly. The birds you need to stop with a net. Rain causes the fruit to split open...so some sort of rain cover might be in order. The fruit fly, there is this great stuff called GF 120 that you can squirt on the tree and it takes care of the fruit fly.
Pears on the other hand have pear psylla, which produces this sticky stuff as it feeds on the foliage. Codling moth which stings fruits. And good ol' fire blight...which will kill the tree in nothing flat if it gets infected.
Also, the recomendation of Lapin might be a good one, but I'm not a fan of Lapin. It has been pretty much rejected by PNW growers because it likes to pit. My favorites are Sweetheart and Skeena. If you live in a rainy area, you should look up those that are more tolerant of rain cracking. I believe Lynn Long at OSU tracks this.
And for my final thought...trying to get ahold of any of the gisela's except 6 will be a huge challenge. The gisela people have shorted the nurseries back to about zero on gisela 12 andthen on gisela 5 it looks like 50% or something. As a commercial grower, I spent Thursday trying to lock up pretty much the remaining inventory of gisela 5...all 4,000 roots or something pathetic like that.
In the Willamette valley pears are pretty easy. I have a Bartlett tree in my yard that I never spray with anything. No problems except codling moths and I didn't have many in the pears untill I had 70 apple trees and didn't do any pest control. Footies should work well. I think there's an article about them somewhere on this site.
I no longer spray for anything -- haven’t for years. I’d had pear psylla over 20 years ago, maybe two or three years in a row, and did spray specifically for them. But I haven’t seen those tiny slug-like creepies for decades.
Very little adversely affects my six varieties of pears. A bear did a job on one tree about 3 years ago… but he hasn’t been back 
Thanks for your contributions jrm1504, it’s always informative to hear from someone doing this for a living ... as opposed to a hobby.
And yes Shaun, you count too!
This message is for jrm1504 or anyone interested in good alternative dwarfing rootstocks for cherries because I think you would do well using 'pontaleb' as refined from a prunus mahaleb breeding program. Lynn E. Long of Wasco county Oregon seems to be fond of the good fruit size and performance this stock has on cherries. If your serious I suppose you could always ask Lynn for a more recent and accurate opinion than the one I heard. There is also another 'fercier pontaleb' which might be a seedling line of 'pontaleb' and as true to the same. The good news is that these new stocks are apparently more available and going for a dollar a piece. I had to go wholesale for 50 just to get a few. All of them were uniform, 20" tall from the crown and usually as thick as a pencil at about 6" from the crown.
Mahaleb is a wild type species performing good in dry soils and may not be favored in dwarfing situations for the many of us that I notice here from west of true cherry country like eg -Yakima WA and Hood River Oregon.
I have 5 cherry trees on Geisla 5 rootstock. When they were growing rapidly past the 12 foot stage, I followed the Spanish bush system of training. I cut the trees down tp about 24 inches. They then branched and I kept 5-6 of these. Each year I remove 2/3 or more of the growth. I now have cherry bushes, 5-7 feet tall, can pick, cover and enjoy. The only problem that has crept into my yard is, racoons. Should enjoy the stew this summer.
Ted
[quote="Ted":3ac71dui]I have 5 cherry trees on Geisla 5 rootstock. When they were growing rapidly past the 12 foot stage, I followed the Spanish bush system of training. I cut the trees down to about 24 inches. They then branched and I kept 5-6 of these. Each year I remove 2/3 or more of the growth. I now have cherry bushes, 5-7 feet tall, can pick, cover and enjoy. The only problem that has crept into my yard is, racoons. Should enjoy the stew this summer.
Ted[/quote:3ac71dui]
What do you do about the stump wound, given that rain and wood don't mix?
I have covered stumps with soup-cans, coffee mugs, buckets, roofing tar, bathroom silicone sealer, etc, to prevent rot.
Overall, I like your pruning system, if you say it gives fruit. Sounds good to me!
How does racoon meat taste? Any preparation tips? Does it BBQ well? I may have to euthanize some over the summer.
Edited to add:
I assume first year cherry "canes" fruit in the second season. Or do they take longer to fruit? Surely growing "canes" do not fruit the first summer.
Do you spread the "canes" more horizontal or just let them grow where they want to?
When you say you remove 2/3 of the growth, is that saying that you shorten a 9 foot branch back to 3 feet? Or do you mean taking a total of 6 branches, and cutting out all but 2? Not clear on this.
2nd edit:
Found a nice pdf LINK on the Spanish Bush System.
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