Hi,
I have 4 American persimmon (Diospyros virginiana) sapplings (whips; bare-root). I would like to know if it would be advisable for me to tape all 4 of them together, side-by-side around the base and around the top portion of the stack, so that they would eventually do a natural graft (sort of a natural approach graft) as they grow and expand, that they would 'inosculate', fusing together to form a solid/single trunk.
This is difficult (for me) to word: if it did work, would all 4 varieties/cultivars be retained in the newly formed unified trunk, or would the buds travel so that they dominant variety/varieties take over the circumference surface area of the trunk.
I was thinking about growing a solid tree of 5 main limbs and cutting off 4 of the limbs in a few years to do a graft onto each limb, leaving on left to sustain the tree. I've read A LOT regarding the difficulty of doing a multi-graft American persimmon tree, that the tree tends to shed previous limbs when new ones are added and that newly added grafts are often dropped, as well.
Thanks,
Steve
Would this work? And if the 4 did form a single trunk, would
If they're long and whippy enough, you could "braid" them together to make a common trunk. And yes, they would keep their individual characteristics. The trunk will grow and fuse together to make one solid mass.
This is an old trick for topworking trees; you graft three scions on the end of a large limb and braid them as they grow. They help support each other and make a large limb faster.
Applenut
Applenut,
Wow, I hope this will work for persimmons. If so, this would make things for me so much easier. Please don't be offended by my questioning this, it's just that I've heard so much regarding the difficulty of grafting persimmons and so many people gave me advice, that if it were just as easy (and logical, as I've considered braiding the whips myself), I worry why no one has suggested this to me before. Can you give me some of your thoughts on this? Also, can you think of a solution to shrewbeer's problem/experience?
Thanks,
Steve
…I’ve 4 persimmon trees, have grafted persimmons onto rootstock and know several ‘pioneers’ growing these trees in my area. Though your idea sounds like an interesting ‘specimen tree,’ I can’t envision any practical benefit to linking four separate ‘saplings.’ First, as an avid pruner, the natural grafts I’ve seen only attach at one point, or a short length of ‘one spot’… As a grafter, I’ve considered linking first year growth from grafted scions but suspect I’d have to scar their ‘meeting or joining spot’ and wrap them, if only to have them attach at ‘that’ location.
Working with aggressive fuzzy kiwi vines I’ll also find such natural grafts, due to their tangling and wrapping around each other (when neglected). But instead of forming a single trunk, or vine, they’ll generally strangle one or the other, or both; even though they’re ‘connected’ by proximity, there is never a ‘continuous graft.’
If I were doing this, I’d use apple or pear trees as they're far more pliable than persimmon. Persimmons are extremely brittle and I can’t envision the pliability or ‘expansion capability’ necessary to allow for the connection of even two cultivars, let alone four. I envision one growing, and the others dieing off.
As mentioned, persimmons shed limbs. So if, as an alternative, you were to bud multiple cultivars to one tree, within several years of production and growth they’d likely wither away; thus reverting back to the base tree. Now, if you were to plant 2 or 3 trees in very close proximity (a foot apart), allowing them to grow ‘among’ yet apart, you may get away with 2 or 3 ‘varieties’ within a very crowded framework.
Other than multiple varieties, there’s no necessity for more than one persimmon – unless you want seeds! My persimmon trees are naturally ‘dwarfing’ and very easy to manage; so if yours is space consideration, you may simply consider two, or three stand-alone trees. As brittle as they are, it would be quite a loss to establish a secondary variety on a single limb – only to find that limb snapped off from crop load or a summer gust ~
Interesting conversation though!
Hello Viron,
I agree: this should not be attempted. However, I might be interested in planting say 2 or 4 in a single hole, spaced about 1' apart, as you say. I've been considering this and know that it would work in having 2 trees in the same space; however, the two trees would grow extremely tall, competing for sunlight. In nature, when you see this, you of course encounter two very thin-trunk trees, but in these situations, they are usually in a woodland context. Maybe if they didn't have trees surrounding them, they would grow tall but still sport limbs from close to the ground/base all the way up to the canopy.
What do you think might happen if I planted them 1' apart (2 trees back-to-back, or 4 trees in a box formation) BUT pruned low, not exceeding a height of 15'. Then wouldn't they grow bushy, sporting limbs that albeit longer start from near ground-level to the canopy?
Thanks,
Steve
I think I'll just keep them pruned to 15' width x 20' height.
In nature, a 15' wide American persimmon grown in the open is about how high? I believe 25'... I think that they are prone to grow twice as tall as wide.
If I knew it would work, I would grow them to 20' and keep them 1 foot apart, back-to-back. But I'd be afraid that they'd only grow limbs at the top; this is how I see pairs of trees in nature: that they have no limbs close to ground level.
Steve, I posted this ‘answer’ last night … it didn’t show on the forum – luckily I was able to retrieve it… You asked:
“What do you think might happen if I planted them 1' apart (2 trees back-to-back, or 4 trees in a box formation) BUT pruned low, not exceeding a height of 15'. Then wouldn't they grow bushy, sporting limbs that albeit longer start from near ground-level to the canopy?â€
I suspect they’d ‘grow away’ from each other… likely leaning outward and even more prone to snapping with a load. Also, when my persimmon trees are leafed out, they appear to be consuming all the available sunlight with their large leaves. I just don’t see, or envision the value in gambling like that. They’re fairly slow growing trees and it would be a shame to waste the life of one, or a couple, or all of them with experimentation 
I’m assuming you’re interested in their eventual production… I just stood and looked over my persimmon trees; their structure is so symmetrical I couldn’t imagine ‘combining’ (even) two without compromising the structural integrity or light gathering capabilities of either.
I’ve a book that suggests, even shows someone planting three apple trees in the same hole… In all of my orchard tours (and they’ve added up) I don’t think I’ve ever seen the results of such a planting… My suspicion, as above, is that you’d end up with severely leaning trees. Now I’ve got one of those! A 90 year old Gravenstein tree, propped up with solid concrete ‘footings’ and Pressure treated beams… no fun.
…I’m temped to suggest you ‘go for it’ - just to learn of the outcome, but I can’t honestly suggest it; time is too precious an investment and persimmons are too special to sacrifice. Now if you’ve several acres and lots of those ‘saplings’ – that’s a different story! So that’s my best ‘guess’ and ‘recommendation’… hope it helps
Hi Viron,
Thank you for the suggestion: I won't try the experiment. Instead, I will keep them pruned (each of the 4 trees) to around 15' width. I had a feeling myself that they would, upon leaning forward, be prone to frequently dropping limbs and would, collectively, look straggly.
I'm going for aesthetics, in addition to production. To create a natural look, since I don't want to allow the trees to grow higher then 20' max, how wide should I maintain them to keep them proportionate? I know that American persimmons, in the open, grow about 25-35 wide and 40-55 tall, but that oval form is, perhaps, only when mature. Since I'm keeping them shorter then 20' feet, should their widths be around 13' instead of closer to 17'? The good think is that I will find out naturally: once they hit around 18-20 tall, I'll know their natural widths.
Do you grow pawpaws?
Thanks,
Steve
Steve, my only experience with an American persimmon was a ‘Meader.’ And it was unfortunately a bad one… Leggy in growth, I actually heard two of it’s scaffold limbs snap one summer day, with separate mild wind gusts… I walked over and finished the job. ‘It’s’ now a nice garden area. The persimmon’s I’ve been referring to are all Asian, far more compact, if civilized - yet brittle, too 
…So I really can’t give you any recommendations on proportions, I would have liked to… I enjoyed about 3 years of fruit off the American before its demise. But I doubt the American’s would do any better in 'close proximity.'
Hey – here’s two of my Asian Persimmons, nearly two years ago: http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb12 ... /35064.jpg
-- Just an aside, but have you watched any of the current PBS series on Appalachia? The first program was fascinating; they described Asia once being connected to the Appalachian range, thus sharing many of the same ‘plants and trees.’ I’d always wondered why ‘we both’ had persimmons, if apparently no where else. It’s also amazing how one civilization cultivated and selected them for superior traits while another, if much younger, didn’t. They’ve another segment, I believe it’s the third, ‘tomorrow’ (Thursday).
I don’t grow pawpaws… I knew an HOS member who did. His problem, in a slightly warmer area than I, was ripening. I don’t think his fruit sets were heavy; though he had the necessary male & female plants.
They were a popular novelty when I was establishing my orchard, which along with Asian pears, I passed. I don’t know of many/any current HOS member growing pawpaws… And I wasn’t very impressed with those my old friend had given me to eat – though I very patiently waited for them to ‘ripen.’ Interesting plants, fancy leaves, a deep tap-root and giant seeds.
Hi Viron,
Very interesting: I've often been considering how we and the orient share the Diospyros spp. family. I'm going to try to watch that show today - I'll also look up the other episode on youtube.
I purchased a 6' tall Asian persimmon ('Saijo' cultivar which is said to be naturally compact and smaller then most). I would like to place it directly above my garden plot and grow it to a height of 10' and 10' spread. Would you recommend I not do this - or could I train the tree to allow enough sunlight to pass through the canopy; I don't think, when mature, they create a lot of shade; I've seen online photos that show gardens (perennials and lawns) underneath.
Plus, I'd have to train the tree to allow the lowest limb to start at 5 1/2 feet above ground so that it doesn't obstruct a walk-way path and I don't know if that makes sense for a 10' or 12' tall tree.
Hi Steve,
I'm growing paw-paws. They're easy to grow, delicious, and full of protein. They have no bug or disease problems and they're full of protein. I have no problems with them ripening, but I live in a valley, not on a mountain. I'm sure you get many more heat units than I do in NJ. The only trick is pollination.
By the way, I also like American persimmons more than Asians for flavor, but they're smaller. Maybe a way for me to lose weight?
John S
PDX OR
Steve, I hate to keep ‘discouraging you’… But I wouldn’t place an Asian persimmon in my vegetable garden(s). Naturally ‘compact,’ its foliage may be denser than normal; thus more shade. I wouldn’t prune it open, either; seems that would defeat the purpose of fruit production?
I’ve also read of bad experiences planting under fruit trees; mainly conflict with roots. Watered with the ‘garden,’ they grow much nearer the surface and dependant on frequent watering. And, you’d likely hit their roots constantly when tilling. I have seen some intensive Asian plantings, perhaps there’s a way, or specific crop recommended for growing under them… That I wouldn’t know.
As is, they’re such a wonderful specimen tree. I’ve seen them (on TV) growing over the water along lakes and ponds in Japan… beautiful! …apparently harvested by boat!
…I’d also recommended the next episode of ‘Appalachia’ to my father, yesterday. Though it didn’t strike me near as interesting as the first in the series… I actually turned away. But the first I’d like to see again, if again!
John; glad Paw paw’s have worked for you. Hope I didn’t come off as ‘totally’ discouraging them… but my friend was on the West side of Portland’s ‘West Hills,’ likely a bit higher than me.
His entire (mainly apple orchard) was on a north facing hill. Not so great for Paw paws I suspect. But it is strange I’ve not seen or heard of more of them … as Persimmons, Kiwi and Figs have become mainstays for most HOS members.
Idyllwild
simplepress
jafar
Marsha H
Viron
John S
1 Guest(s)