I'm curious... I just got around to reading the January 26th addition of the Hillsboro Argus (Hillsboro, Oregon). There's a great piece by Susan Gordanier, about Florence Herinckx and her husband, John -- and their Massive Gravenstein apple tree!
"The Gravenstein apple tree is likely dying now, Herinckx says. It recently lost one of its two remaining major limbs, each of a size more typically seen in the main trunks of trees. This tree's trunk is also formidable, with a circumference of just over 11 feet, when measured four feet above the ground."
"The apple tree growing behind their farmhouse was already old when the Herinckx family first came to their property at the end of the road now bearing their name - and that was in 1945, she says."
"It stood, the largest of four Gravensteins, along with some cherries and a Bartlett pear, on land that had originally been part of the John Marsh homestead but was sold off in 1873..."
"A likely source of Herincks's tree is Henderson Luelling, another early entrepreneur nurseryman, who brought over 700 young grafted fruit trees in a wagon from Iowa to Oregon in 1847." "...Luelling's trees helped establish family orchards for many of the region's original settlers, and if the old Gravenstein dates from then, it has earned the respect Herinckx shows it."
There's a beautiful photo, courtesy of Florence Herinckx, of John standing in front of their Gravenstein tree in the summer of 2005, before it lost one of two major limbs...
My question: If I were willing to meet with the Herinckx's to gather some scion wood from this tree, then bring it to our Home Orchard Society's Fruit and Berry Cutting (Scion) ExchangeSaturday, March 10th. @ Alder Creek Middle School -- would there be enough (if any) interest in propagating this old tree?
I have an old Gravenstein apple tree myself, it's fruit were described by our experts as "the old kind," firmer, denser, and seemingly more flavorful than the newer 'versions.' And it's perhaps the most vigorous apple variety I know. Obviously, anyone willing could have one grafted (by us if necessary) to a more dwarfing rootstock... I'm open to suggestions, but the clocks ticking on procuring dormant wood - if at all?
Hey folks -- I just had to see it! I met Saturday morning with Florence Herinckx and gathered an excellent bundle of perfect dormant scion wood. And, as described in the Hillsboro Argus article, there were several other massive apple trees, along with a (Royal Ann) cherry tree in an apparent "orchard." Though there is no evidence directly linking these trees to the Henderson Luelling Nursery ... circumstantial evidence, and a further description of this Gravenstein apple's unique flavor and apparent age leave few other sources.
It is massive! But its age is indicated and belied by the fact its interior wood has long ago rotted away; leaving a massive living shell of knurled trunk & limbs. And though it's battered … I wouldn't say the tree is dying. I sawed off four foot scion whips @ 12 feet in the air that are as healthy as any I've seen. And, the tree looks to be free of Aerial Crown Gaul [ http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3301.html ] and Anthracnose [ http://gardening.wsu.edu/library/tree001/tree001.htm ].
Sharp, and charming, Florence says her brother, Eugene Evers (long E) of Forest Grove, is an HOS member, and that he's also interested in keeping this "tree" alive. She also described Dutch relatives being so impressed by this Gravensteins flavor and texture that they took wood back to Holland and started their own tree. They claim it's still the best Gravenstein apple they know of. As I suspect (and described above) it's simply what Gravenstein's originally tasted like -- before breeders began selecting for size & color...
So, the wood is good, and secure! I plan to set up an individual display for it at our Scion Exchange (Fruit & Berry Cutting…) as I'll be grafting my guts out elsewhere... I hope people will read the accompanying article, and if sparked to keep alive a very old tree, perhaps stemming from the beginning of Oregon's nursery industry, grab a stick or two with some rootstock and make (or have made) some more. ...While its next hundred and fifty years will be left to others!
Tahir; I do "SLR'S" - my kids do the Digital - but we forgot both! The original Argus article has a great photo, taken by Florence Herinckx, with John standing in front of the tree (on a sunny 
summer day), I plan to bring that to the Exchange.
Also ... I've been meaning to ask, how do we post photos here? I'm sure I could come up with some interesting stuff, not quite as impressive as palm trees with a snow covered mountain range in the distance...
And an Uncle wants some of this Gravenstein wood. We're gonna 'trade' for a two year old freshly dug Hardy Kiwi (says he doesn't like their flavor). I just love it when good wood's secure, we've time to get on with planning where to put it 
[quote="Viron":1rx32r4c]Tahir; I do "SLR'S" - my kids do the Digital - but we forgot both![/quote:1rx32r4c]
Sounds like me and my wife. To post a picture here you need to use an online photo sharing service like photobucket and post a link to an image. There are "hacks" available to allow direct picture attachment but they're not on here.
Unfortunately I won't be coming to the exchange, I'm in Essex, England.
Tahir; this is a strange tale: a past family friend was somewhat of a one-man-experiment-station for one of my favorite (in-state) mail-order nurseries. He seemed to have one of everything – and I thought I had a menagerie! We'd originally learned of each other through my Dad and his shared interest in bee keeping; when my Dad described him having persimmons, figs and Kiwi, along with exotic varieties I'd only read about - I just had to meet him!
Well, he had "Anna" hardy kiwi. (Ananasnaya - a Russian cultivar meaning "pineapple-like.") They produced so well that he was nearly buried in them! On one visit he was drying some, but allowed my Dad, Brother and self to eat all the fresh ones we wanted! I did! My brother said the 'smell' of them bothered him... And after eating about a third as many as I did, he, he 'lost them'... My Dad and I never understood what the problem was..?
When my Uncle planted the same variety 2 or 3 years ago, I jokingly told him this story - we laughed. Late this fall he asked if I remembered my Brother's reaction to those hardy kiwi..? …and said he'd had the same ~
http://www.veseys.com/ca/en/store/fruit ... kiwi/image
Hey - this is fun, while searching for “Anna Hardy Kiwi's,†I found this: viewtopic.php?p=1047
He was somber and serious, and I don't know if there's anything more to this -- but I'm about to dig a 3 foot diameter hole at the far end of my Fuzzy Kiwi arbor (with plans for expansion), and am already looking forward to gorging myself -- again & again!
I unwisely gave away my Gravenstein tree some years ago, when excellent fruit was still commercially available. Since then, I have been unable to obtain good apples. Gravensteins do not seem to ripen well when picked early. Nor do they hold very well once they have ripened.
Picked ripe off of a healthy tree, they have few equals, but the skill of timely picking, and rapid marketing, seems to have been lost in this area.
The "Red" Gravenstein, isn't much like the "Green" or real Gravenstein, and is much inferior to it. "Red" Gravensteins, are not worth eating. Further, the commerially grown "Green" Gravensteins, I have sampled lately in the Portland Area, haven't been worth eating either. Some weren't really Gravenstiens, and some were Gravensteins picked so early that they were unable to ripen.
Good quality, Gravenstein apples may still be purchased in Northern California. The Santa Rosa/Sebastapol area is famous for its Gravenstein apples. Highway 101 passes through that area, where it merges with the aptly named "The Gravenstein Highway".
The Gravenstein produces stellar fruit here in the Portland area. It's very early and has few pest problems. Its fruit develops quickly, ripens, and is gone.....Before most pests have a chance to attack it.
One of the best apples. Hard to get now. I have to get a new tree.
Which of these (or either) is the Gravenstein you're all talking about. After hearing you guys enthusing about it I might see if I can get some grafted.
http://brogdale.org/nfc_plants.....?plantid=7 and search for Gravenstein
Here's what looks to be the "original" Gravenstein Apple: http://brogdale.org/image1.php.....etyid=1207
I have to agree that the "Red Gravensteins" are less than memorable and seem unrelated to the parent apple. Newer varieties appear 'puffed up,' like a larger version of any fruit - the flavor is not increased, just spread further within the larger fruit...
I've just finished a "Display" for the Gravenstein apple scions I procured from the 1873 homestead of John Marsh (now in care of John Herinckx, of Cornelius, OR.) and likely a tree from the Nursery of Henderson Luelling – containing the first grafted fruit trees across the Oregon Trail.
I will have them displayed at our Exchange next Saturday, with a small stash in the grafting zone with me... I will take home the extra wood (I have several requests for some), and 'go from there.'
Hey folks, thanks for the fun comments 
... but I've been hunting all over for the person who'd wanted some of this Gravenstein wood. If I wasn't hallucinating, it seemed very near the event when I suggested he give our Webmaster his contact info so I could communicate directly about mailing some scions. I'd even checked with the post office about sending them - no problem.
I thought in the very next post 'he' gave his e-mail address... Now, after scouring the Forum, I can't find it! I even bugged our Webmaster about it. Steven said users can delete their own posts, and that maybe he did. ...But that should have left my original suggestion - and I can't find that either? Maybe after nearly 200 posts -- you can get this way 
Anyway, I had purposefully saved some of that Gravenstein wood for 'you.' I sure don't want 'you' to think I'd forgotten, or didn't care... After taking 3 grafted trees to the Herinckx home, Florence Herinckx informed me that 'one of you' came over for some wood yourself ... so you're covered... I haven't looked into international mail... but Tahir... if you're game...?
I'll stand by over here, and like I said, the woods still good!
I didn't delete the post. Email me at gkowen@comcast.net and hopefully I can get some. Glad to make a donation to HOS and cover costs.
Greg, Viron; I've placed some of your e-mail questions here, so everybody can follow your project!
"...I have the one tree that I cut off and is about 4 inches in diameter. I'd like to somehow graft this [Gravenstein apple] on to that. You mentioned an inverted L graft?" "I'd like to put 4 [scions] on the one tree and a couple on branches of another tree for future possibilities. When is the bark slipping best for inverted L grafting? First of April? The trees seem to be coming out of dormancy so should be able to supply a good connection anytime in the next month or so I think." "Now I have to learn what that graft is?"
I think you're right on the bark-slip dates, and there's no real hurry, as long as your scions are dormant. Here's a description of a couple of the grafts that might work well for you: [From: http://www.tmorganics.com/gardening_art,conmap,2468
Inverted L
"This is used to rework established trees. An inverted L is cut through the bark of the tree, often a limb. The scion is cut as for a whip and tongue, but the split for the tongue is not made. Instead, a slice is taken off one side. Insert the scion under the flap so that the slice is against the bark of the vertical part of the cut. Put a tack through the scion to secure it and paint the union with grafting mastic. Traditionally, melted wax was used for this."
Rind Graft
"This technique is used to rework trees that have been cut back. A vertical slit is made in the bark and a scion prepared as for inverted L grafting is inserted into the slit. The scion is tacked into place and the join covered with grafting mastic. Several scions are often grafted onto the stock. This speeds the callousing and allows for some scions not taking."
Here's a great set of photos, along with a 'different' (to me) method of Bark Grafting, by Tim Smith, Washington State University Extension:
http://www.ncw.wsu.edu/treefruit/graft/ (click on the various buttons)
It may be less invasive, one cut as opposed to two. I've used the method of making two parallel cuts the width of the scion; peel back the bark and 'slide' the scion down; then (also) nail the 'flap' to & through the scion into the limb; then use good o'l plumbers putty to fill the open edges and seal with latex grafting seal.
The inverted L is a good one too, same long slanting cut on the scion; simply slide it into the short cut of an 'upside-down' L. I also use a small nail (with a head) to secure it. But watch where the scion emerges against the bark; I'll sometimes cut a notch so that it lays flat against the underlying wood, as opposed to 'bending up' to ride over the bark edge - depending on how thick the bark is. In your case, fairly thin I suspect. Here again, I use the plumbers putty to plug any gaps, then paint over with grafting seal - never forgetting those scion tips.
Bark grafts are wonderful, you can 'sense' the connection! The 'moisture' under the bark are cambial cells, and the connection you get between them as you slide this one-sided scion under the bark is absolute!
Something I mutter while cutting a scion: "Start the cut above a bud on the scion stick (cutting down), to give yourself the longest length of straight grain (bud free) wood" - in this case, to insert under the bark {when bench-grafting you do the opposite on the rootstock, cutting it upwards from below a bud, for the same reason}. I try never to insert a bud under the bark, or have it located too near the upper opening.
Otherwise - watch your mail Greg. And Essex ... (hint hint) I'll have enough scions left for one more grafter … (either post your e-mail, or send it to me via our Webmaster) ...and Greg, you can delete yours, if you'd like.
***********************************
PS... Folks, this looks like Number 200 for me 
Wow! -- seems like only yesterday ... I was combing R. J. Garner's, "The Grafter's Handbook" on how to graft, then Robert L. Stebbin's, "Fruit Berries & Nuts" for varieties - when I found the following: "Home Orchard Society... Portland, OR. $5 membership includes subscription to Pome News, a 10-page newsletter published four times yearly." After receiving the warmest invitation from Marian Dunlap, I attended the HOS All About Fruit Show... Now, over twenty years later - it's payback time!
...And if I were patient enough ... I'd submit some of this to our Pome News, but I'm not! After 25 years of monkeying around in my Great Grandfather's Orchard, I still can't plant (or replace) fast enough! Just two days ago I made 4 grafts of Seneca Prunes (thanks Jerry) - why? -- Because they were there!
Thanks for all the great info Viron! I look forward to this project. I think I will take pics and make a website about the project and post update links to this thread. I didn't do to well with updates on my cleft grafts from last year, but the grafts did great. They look strong and are doing well. I will do better with updates this time.
The flat rate international mailer is a large cardboard envelope (10x12). One price, and no weight limit, so put as much stuff in it as you can fit. Pretty fast.
As I recall, the mailer is free, and it costs about 12 bucks to send. You could send dozens of scions to England, wrapped in a moist paper towel, inside a sealed plastic bag, inside a flat rate mailer. I have no idea if British customs would delay them, or let them through. But, the physical part of it isn't hard to imagine.
Excellent - USPS 
" title="Laughing" />
Greg, the nails I use are 3/4" long (longer might be better), 1/16" in diameter with a 1/8" head. They are nothing 'special,' just ordinary steel hardware nails. I've heard it suggested using brass, I don't know why, and would be reluctant to do so -- other than they'll do less damage to someone’s chainsaw down the road...
You don't want to use a large head because it's not necessary, and the tree must heal over a larger piece of metallic material to seal itself. It only needs to hold the scion firm to the wood stock, without 'slipping through' the bark flap. I've had people suggest using finishing nails ... the diameter's right, the length’s right, but the head’s so small it would likely allow the bark to slip through, or past.
*** And I haven’t heard from anyone else with regard to my supply of this Gravenstein wood... I've still got one more batch in the fridge 
" title="Wink" />
Ok, another question before I start. The bark graft is what I am going to do. The website that Viron posted earlier shows very nice detailed pics. But one thing escapes my thinking. The scionwood is cut on one side only I believe?? Then when slipped under the bark, it should be slanted out from the trunk. But the photo shows it straight up. As I draw it out on paper, when I make the slanted cut on the scion, I can see no way to attach it to the trunk straight up. The outword direction is not a problem really, but I want to make sure I understand before I start. I hope this question makes sense.
Let’s see if I can 'explain' this? You'll cut an upside-down L in the bark ... I wouldn't do this too soon -- the bark must be slipping to cleanly release from the 'wood.' Carefully peeling back its 'corner,’ slide the slanted cut scion gently into and against the wood (not the bark). The scion will rest at a 45 degree angle, touching against the inside corner of that inverted L. I've learned to cut a notch in that 'corner' just enough to allow the scion to fit snug against the wood, and not 'bend' up and over this edge, as you nail its base.
So, the scion will be protruding out and 'around' the tree as it rests at a 45 degree angle in this inverted L. The slanted cut will give a slight outward slant to the scion, depending on the thickness of the scion once it's firmly nailed to the stock. Depending on the diameter of the scion, give it a nice long level sloped cut; on a pencil diameter piece, I’d make a one inch long cut.
If you are also doing some crown bark grafts, at the top of a freshly sawed off stock, you can either make one cut through the stock’s bark (as shown in the pictures), or two. I've always made two, the width of the scion apart. But there only needs to be one good 'level' slanted cut on the scion, and that one side needs to meet with the cambial cells against the wood. Don't dilly-dally; carefully nail through the bark flap, through the scion, and into the stock. Gently smear plumbers putty into the resulting gaps and seal it over with grafting sealer (dabbing those scion tips too). If you make a mess of the bark, tack it back in place and paint it over with sealer; then try in another place.
I'm waiting a good week before making some inverted L bark grafts on a 'prune' tree. You can really make a mess if that bark doesn’t slip ... but when it does - it's magic
Thanks Viron. I will wait another week as well. I made a mistake and ordered some plants that I was told I could not get, and so I reordered from another place and now I have double because the first place shipped. Oh well, outside work in the rain is what I enjoy doing.
I’ve just looked up the spelling and am now labeling my successful graft of the “Herinckx Gravenstein†apple, made just over a year ago. I use a permanent marker on brightly colored ‘surveyors tape’ to record the name when grafting to existing (now ‘top-worked’) trees. If the graft ‘takes,’ and survives the following winter, I mark and place a permanent aluminum tag with a good length of copper wire loosely around the branch; which I relocate over the years while pruning as the limb grows…
Therefore, I’ve no need to remember my every addition, guess at its age, or hike to the house to go online (sifting through 5 pages) to find the ‘correct spelling’ of, for instance, Florence Herinckx. Thanks again Florence for sharing this special apple with us; your families generosity, and its likely link to the family of Henderson Luelling will live on!
Idyllwild
simplepress
jafar
Marsha H
Viron
John S
1 Guest(s)