Hi guys, im after some user experience regarding apples on the mentioned rootstocks.
I've researched both plenty, but can't come to a solid conclusion. Some say both produce plenty of fruit, while others argue they dont.
Does anyone else here have apples on either rootstock? What are their fruiting and growth habits like? How do they cope in your soil?
Thanks guys.
M9 is going to be very small-good if you are going to trellis your plants. M27 is probably more appropriate for a backyard garden with minimal use of ladders and will probably produce more fruit simply because the total plant size will be larger but reachable from the ground. This all depends of course what you top the plant with. If it is something that grows really big it will be larger than varieties that are smaller. The size of the tree will be a combination between the habits of both the root stock and the top.
Tom Gibson
I'm a real fan of M27 and have also grown M9. My experience is from the UK, temperate/dry climate, growing on fairly well maintained allotment soil.
I wrote an article about this for our allotment association, encouraging people to try M27:
http://www.pocklingtonallotmentassociat ... otment.htm
(Apologies for the rather empty website, it is very new, but hopefully the article is of interest to you).
I like to plant them just over 1m apart, which seems to work well. The other thing I did was to plant the rootstocks in situ and then bud them, so no transplant shock, and full cropping after 3 years. I have Scrumptious, Falstaff, Elstar, Kidds Orange, Katy, Rajka, Topaz, Rubinette, Vista Bella. I would say the fruiting and other characteristics are the same on M27 as any other rootstock.
There is something very pleasing about M27 trees, they are the same size as a humans, and very easy to work in amongst. M9s are great too, but they are just trees, if you see what I mean.
Richard
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!
I have 2 Spur fruiting varieties on m27 stocks, and had i of know more about apple trees when i bought them, i would of been able to train them properly. (They are the minnarette trees sold by the Telegraph)
My soil is absolutely rubbish, it's such heavy dense clay, and some holes ive dug recently seem to hold water for a while which is not very encouraging. Any experience with any clay soil at all? I Plan on adding plenty of organic material after removing as much clay as possible!
Also richard, its glad to see some feedback from the owner of a site im sure we are all readers and members of!
(Apple scrumptious is most likely my favorite variety)
Hey Chris(g), Spur trees are more compact, thus a bit smaller than their normal counterparts. So you’re going to have some very small apple trees…
If you’d like larger and stronger trees, and your graft unions are near the ground, there’s a way… Just bury the graft union/s and the upper scion will root; the tree will reestablish itself on ‘it’s own roots.’ With the poor soil you described, combined with the naturally compact nature of a spur tree – you might have a winning combination 
Also, pruning is fun! If by any chance those trees considered becoming ‘too tall,’ Summer tip-pinching creates a wonderful structure - and dormant pruning can deal with the rest. As long as someone pays attention to their trees during the growing season, and prunes every year – size isn’t the problem it’s cracked up to be, at least with me.
I’ve areas of equally poor soil, and done what I described above to one apple tree. Though I had to ‘mound’ the soil some to cover the union, and have not scrapped it away to look for rooting – the tree’s doing much better! And as I mentioned, the poor soil will limit its size.
My experience with amending the soil after-the-fact is dismal… the best I can recommend is mulch; it seems to allow some natural or microbial activity and of course conserves moisture when needed. Attempting to mix in ‘better soil’ will likely tear up the surface roots and/or cause those same roots to move up toward the nutrients – as opposed to ‘digging in.’ Thus they’re more susceptible to drought stress.
With your standing water problem, if you were to place some retaining blocks around the base of each tree (the more space the better) you could fill them with decent soil - up over the graft union; allow the ‘scion’ to root and have at least some of the root structure above standing water…
Just thinking out loud … anyone else bury a graft union for more vigor..?
I hate to tell you this, Chris, but I would dig it up, put in rock, gravel, old wood, and compost.
Standing water is bad news unless it is on malus fusca, the native Oregon swamp crabapple. Lon wrote about it, and you can put winter banana on it and graft pears or apples.
John S
PDX OR
Thats one style ive never heard of before viron! 
Wouldn't the roots of the scion however grow extremely large and cover an enormous area?
You are correct about the small tree, they must have a leader no taller than 4 feet, and thats at 3 years old. They are very scrawny! I think this winter im going to prune any major sidewards branches and try to promote a straight upwards growth, but then allow growth of side shoots which should bear some fruit They are currently potted, as i acquired them when they were very young, but wish to move them on to the ground.
The area of ground i plan on planting all my trees in is so far empty, which means i can work and work at it before i plant My only problem is disposing of the clay, as its extremely dense! I think after digging downwards, maybe 40 cm, i might then add plenty of mulch, such as leaves, and other organic matter. I would then fill it all back up with some quality soil and then plant my trees.
I hate to say it to John, but i think you're idea is my only solution
Great Advice Guys!
Chris,
you ask: “Wouldn't the roots of the scion however grow extremely large and cover an enormous area?â€
They’d try! But with soil that poor, and only receiving what nutrients they’d get from the ‘above ground’ tree & leaves, I think they’d stay in check 
If they’re in pots… they’re likely Pot, or “Rootbound.†Have you ‘lifted’ them out to see if the roots are strangling each other or growing out through the drain holes..? I’ve got deer problems so could never get away with such dwarfing rootstock, but I’ll assume even ‘M-27’s’ would rather be free
So you can amend their soil… Be careful not to create ‘another pot’ by digging out a smooth-sided hole within pottery-capable clay! At least bust up the sides so the roots are free to venture into the native stuff. And, if you put too rich a planning medium inside such a hole, there’s little incentive for the roots to move out. Finding it far easier to turn back into the soft rich stuff, they may imitate the conditions of a pot. - Separate and spread those roots out good!
Or… you could sink them up to their necks in a half and half blend of rich & native soil, well over the graft union; allow the scion to root … and see what happens? I think some of the best advice ‘not given’ when selecting a rootstock is taking into account the fertility of the native soil. I’ve got 25 year old trees that took forever … planted with the rich ‘replacement soil’ you’ve described but sitting in pottery-capable clay they’ve ‘just now’ reached a size… actually, I’d still like them bigger!
It appears to take a large portion of ones lifetime for dwarfed trees to reach their potential in clay. As mentioned – I’d much rather tip-pinch and prune than …wait ...seemingly forever for that opportunity. …if these dudes are still in pots… this Spring donate them to a plant exchange; research a semi-dwarfing rootstock – also taking into account (perhaps advice ‘not given’ #2) the natural vigor of the scion – something that can take the wet clay and match (graft) the two -- or find one with the combinations you want - and plant them instead... Also consider pollination, or eventually grafting a pollinator to them.
Perhaps ‘out of the pot’ your trees will take off, but lacking a decent store of nutrients in their root system ‘now,’ removing their lateral branches will simply cut down energy-collecting food-producing leaf-surface giving you little in exchange. Another problem with lack of vigor is their inability to ‘outgrow’ or ‘defend themselves’ from the multitude of insect attacks. I’ve come across many a ‘stunted’ and extremely dwarfed tree having suffered so many attacks, if mine, I’d yank them – and put them out of their misery! I’d much rather, as mentioned, keep in check a vigorous tree (Bonsai!) than fret over a weak one. …I know how you can get attached to them, but years are a terrible thing to waste.
Lastly – as a long-time HOS member and contributor, my ‘advice’ is often meant for more than the person I’m answering… As I’ve tossed out several observations and possible solutions, they’re not meant to pressure you to ‘do’ any one of them. I’m pretty sure you’d picked up on that, but want everyone else to understand the same 
Thanks for the response Viron, some excellent content
I suppose i should give them a bit of attention before i put them in the ground, if i so decide. If they are rootbound, do you recommend i trim the roots? I know this helps to keep the bonsai trees from being rootbound and keeps them growing strong.
Size isnt the most important factor for me, im looking for a bit of variety aswell, and should my garden space be bigger than it is, i would surely reach for bigger and better rootstocks. I have an apple discovery coming on an M9 rootstock, hopefully that will reach a bigger size in my poor soil
Maybe i should keep the trees in pots, and just plant the M9 rootstock, and see how it copes? Im unsure yet, your wealth of advice has gotten me to reconsider
*Edit*
How about M26 Rootstocks in heavy clay topped with about 1 foot of rubbish soil, would this fare up well?
Chris: “If they are rootbound, do you recommend i trim the roots?â€
To me, trimming the roots is simply robbing the tree of its nutrient store. Just untangle them. It’s work, but worth it… And it’s your best opportunity to literally ‘straighten them out.’ Just follow them where ever they’ve twined, even though you may lose much of their potting soil in the process.
After finding the main roots, I’ll actually dig an additional trench out and away from my planting hole to allow them to expand into the native soil. Fan-out all the roots as you plant them. And do keep the graft union above the soil line; generally at the level it was growing in the pot, if not a bit higher – as the soil tends to settle. Just lay a rake handle across the hole to measure from…
I’m not familiar with the vigor of Discovery, but M-9’s still makes a mighty small tree. Check out the chart: http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/fruit_veg ... _apple.asp
I’m ‘down’ there with MM111 for my claymation sites… even considering standard trees! Click on the underlined rootstocks for more details.
“Maybe i should keep the trees in pots, and just plant the M9 rootstock, and see how it copes?â€
How big are your pots..? And, I’d go with a ‘finished’ tree, making your best guess at its eventual vigor on whatever rootstock you choose. But as mentioned, you can amend the soil to some degree… haven’t access to a small backhoe do you 
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Personally, I’d look for a vigorous rootsock that does well wet. If you’re going for Spur variety trees, again, they’re naturally compact – though greatly limit your cultivar selections… I’m not a rootsock expert, but have gotten pretty good at connecting them with scions. But if you were to let a rootstock ‘try’ the location, and after two or three years it proved itself -- you’d be 3 more years away from a crop after grafting it with a desired apple…
“How about M26 Rootstocks in heavy clay topped with about 1 foot of rubbish soil, would this fare up well?â€
APPLE ROOTSTOCK M26
“A good choice of rootstock for a small garden, more vigorous than M9, it will withstand moderate competition from weeds and grass and will grow successfully in soils with fertility on the low side.
M26 rootstock trees do not produce a strong root system and they should therefore be supported by a stake during their lives.
It is ideal for the amateur gardener who wants to grow a small bush tree or cordon and espalier shaped trees. Its size can be controlled to a large degree by pruning twice a year, with no specialist knowledge required.
Although not as quick to produce fruit as M27 rootstock trees, it is almost guaranteed to produce a crop in its third year.
GardenAction recommend this rootstock for small to medium sized gardens and for growing cordons and espaliers. The tree will reach a height of about 3 metres /10 feet, although pruning twice a year will keep the tree to a height of about 2 metres / 7 feet. Before selecting this rootstock see the pros and cons of MM106 rootstock.â€
…We’ve some experts on rootstock that may check in… Just remember the equation: cultivar vigor (the variety of apple you want); rootstock vigor; soil condition and ability of rootstock to withstand those conditions … then toss in your desire to tip-pinch and prune, as well as water & mulch… and you’ll likely come up with something – then plant it 
Richard,
I really enjoyed your article on M27 trees. In Portland (Oregon) my father had two “allotments†within a Community Garden … with the same problems described by your association 
" title="Wink" /> One was tilled every year and the other was permanent. But if there were any fruit trees around, I don’t remember them... I was always proud of my Father’s plots, seemingly the most productive ... but I also knew his nasty secrete – a 55 gallon drum of rotting fish sitting in our back yard, which he’d transport like nitroglycerine to use as fertilizer! His two, 20 foot rows of “Willamette†Raspberries were the envy of the area!
Your trees look magnificent! And I’m happy to see your link with our Society! Having watched many a Brit-com and near constantly listening to the BBC I’ve acquired an affinity for Britain. And with a grandparent’s last name, “Britt,†I suspect there are some genetic ties. …and whenever I get upset over politics around here … I consider your nation, though it sounds to be full up
When considering your climate, I envision the Puget Sound region of Washington (state) or BC Canada. …though a bit too damp for this native Oregonian (if that’s possible), it’s another direction I’d move if so inclined. Anyway, I appreciate your contribution, links and effort.
Thanks for all your help viron, definitely some good info there!
I just need to put plan into action now, should this rain clear up momentarily anyway...!
By all means, any experience anyone else would like to contribute, please feel free to do so!
Thanks for all the helpful replies guys!
I planted one of my apple trees on malus fusca, because it is in such a swampy site.
The other main possibility, in my mind, is double grafting. The full sized root system will probably deal with the clay better, and the interstem will dwarf the tree to the size you want.
Idyllwild
simplepress
jafar
Marsha H
Viron
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