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GH
Battle Ground, WA
127 Posts
(Offline)
1
January 3, 2018 - 2:52 am

Does anyone have experience growing apple trees on EMLA 27 rootstock?  By mistake I recently ordered a miniature dwarf Hudson's Golden Gem, which apparently can be kept pruned to 5 feet. It seems like a waste of space to plant it with the other semi-dwarf fruit trees, and it would always require a more extensive watering regimen than the semi-dwarves.

Is keeping it as a potted tree a good idea?  If so can it be kept potted for its entire life, or will it eventually need to be planted in the ground? 

Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.  If nothing else it's a reminder to double check before finalizing purchases online (or for that matter, anywhere).

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jafar
763 Posts
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2
January 3, 2018 - 10:16 am

If you have experience growing potted trees, I'd expect EMLA 27 to be a good choice for a pot.  I don't like growing in pots because it takes more attention.

I have a Honeycrisp on M27 that has been in the ground 10 years or so.  It is tiny, but Honeycrisp is already low vigor.

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GH
Battle Ground, WA
127 Posts
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3
January 4, 2018 - 1:07 am

Thanks, Jafar.

Another option, for something different, is creating a stepover tree with it. I stumbled onto the idea while looking for EMLA 27 information. My understanding is that a one-tiered espalier is created, and that it is not too difficult to accomplish. It sounds like an interesting project.

I'm finding that information on rootstocks can be a little vague, and different sites seem to add to the confusion.  My take is that EMLA 27 and M27 are the same miniature dwarf rootstock. Is this correct, or are they different?

Thanks, again, for the information. 

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jafar
763 Posts
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4
January 4, 2018 - 1:04 pm

I think the EMLA versions are clones of the M that are virus free, which changes some of their characteristics.  I tend to think of them as interchangeable although I probably shouldn't.

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John S
PDX OR
2800 Posts
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5
January 6, 2018 - 8:49 am

I bought two of my favorite varieties on dwarf rootstock, Karmijn da Sonnaville, and Enterprise.  They both have big apples, and both snapped off below the graft, leaving me with dwarf rootstock.  I think I'm going to graft Wickson, Callaway, Chestnut, or some other crabapple on them.  I can't stand to have my heart broken too many times. I agree with Jafar about avoiding hassle of trees in pots.  Plus I think the shape of an actual tree is good for nature: spiders, little birds, pollinators, etc.

John S
PDX OR

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
772 Posts
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6
January 7, 2018 - 12:50 am

So much lack of hard evidence on how to go about trying something new with new rootstocks in pots. When I first set up ground in Vancouver in 1990 right when I started with home depot apricots, which forced me several years later to start listening to locals, I started along with a better idea than apricots that maybe you would still enjoy;

On the idea from a brand new general applications of fruit trees book, one of the inclusions were by Sam of Raintree nursery that I thought at first was a misprint. It stated in short order "asian (nashi) pears grafted on quince are 5-10%". (very short and sweet)

I went on to list with the discussion group NAFEX and found many participants there were actually established nursery operators, one being Ed (?), who for sure owned Rocky something nursery before selling out. He had verified he had grafted these asian-japanese-nashi pears to quince. They were in fact as the book indicated small bushes. 

He seemed very convincing there were no issues with the graft incompatibility syndrome John had talked about with his two so I ordered a bunch of quince-C rootstock and picked what seemed to me the fastest growing asian tree of 180 young self rooted seed selections. My final desire was to have at least one fence line of privacy asian pears. I guess that was a combined experiment that worked really well, as they did not have to be in pots and they could have reached maybe 7 foot and stopped growing. Just like Ed said would be true, and lots of production as promised.

Being older I now I began removing them one by one to cross section (test) the asian/quince grafts which were always good. One remains since it is kind of attractive and still no overgrowth above or below the union. However I keep ignoring the fruit as I usually find it slightly bitter by comparison to the same clone in my yard on it's own root.

I thought the whole story should be told since it is sometimes the species on the top and above the graft  (not just the root) that can have the dwarfing influence geatly magnified..

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John S
PDX OR
2800 Posts
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7
January 7, 2018 - 12:26 pm

My two dwarf trees weren't about incompatibility.  They were small dwarf trees full of huge apples and the mechanical force snapped off the trunk when the weight of the apples were too much.

John S
PDX OR

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
422 Posts
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8
January 12, 2018 - 9:29 pm

GH,

An apple tree grafted onto the extremely dwarfing rootstock EMLA 27 (virus-free if truly EMLA) or M27 (--secondary source and not guaranteed virus-free) will require a lot more care than most any other apple.  For starters, it should be planted into a soil that is thoroughly amended with the appropriate elements for a well-balanced soil (--get a soil test from a reputable place).  Secondly, it should be staked for appropriate support against our occasional wind storms, and against inebriated sasquatches that might stumble and fall against them.  Third, they should be given absolute loving care and appropriate, judicious pruning to promote good, well-spaced, firm branching for subsequent fruit production.

The main factors in dealing with an extremely dwarfed tree is the support, and the fact that the tree -- producing normal-sized fruit on a dwarf tree -- will need the utmost attention and the necessary nutrients in the fertilizing regimen to perform appropriately.  

If I were you, I would not keep the tree in a pot unless you have no choice.  Years of experience suggests to me that a plant's ability to "spread its wings" once out of a pot can truly bring it to life.  We all love freedom.  With an apple, planting it outdoors would be fine.  One of the selling points for dwarf fruit trees of any sort is that they can supposedly be grown in a pot indoors.  This may be the case for people who just want to have a particular type of fruit tree represented inside their manor, but if you really want it to be worth the purchase price the tree should really be planted outside in a good, fertile soil so that it can produce a healthy, broadly-reaching root system.  If the soil nutrients are inadequate, or the root system is constrained, the plant itself cannot be expected to perform well.  

'Hudson's Golden Gem' is a local and regional Classic.  My personal recommendation is that you select some scion wood from it within this coming month and put it, in appropriate form, into the fridge, then graft that onto an MM106 or MM111 rootstock in late March this spring so that you can get a larger tree and truly appreciate the cultivar in the future with each apple and each and every bite.

Reinettes

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GH
Battle Ground, WA
127 Posts
(Offline)
9
January 14, 2018 - 3:21 am

Thank you, Reinettes, and everyone else, for the advice.  I will soon be taking the Home Orchard Society grafting class, so starting a new semi-dwarf Hudson's Golden Gem can be my first project.

Grafting one's own fruit trees, or grafting onto existing trees, didn't appeal to me when I first planted some fruit trees a short while ago.  I figured, why bother? Then I started reading forum topics, with posters talking about grafting and how useful and rewarding it is. The discovery of so many wonderful apples that I really "must have", along with  finite space and finances, also led me to the grafting bandwagon.  Now I can't wait to attend the class in February.

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John S
PDX OR
2800 Posts
(Offline)
10
January 20, 2018 - 12:58 pm

I remember thinking the same thing.  Oh, I'll probably just make 2 or 3 grafts in my life.  

Way more than a hundred grafts later, I see how many uses there are for grafting, and I'm discovering more as the years go on.

One of the crucial things I noticed was how much better the flavor was (and probably the nutrition) when I could grow the fruit in good soil, and apply several techniques to improve the health of the trees.

When I see a variety I like in a store, I know I'm going to be disappointed, so I rarely buy them.

John S
PDX OR

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