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Geneva apple rootstocks.
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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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June 28, 2015 - 4:51 pm

     I'm wondering if any of you have trialled some of the Geneva rootstocks that have been introduced in recent years, or have some firsthand knowledge (or even hearsay) of their performance here in the PNW.  

     I have perhaps 40-50 apple cultivars at present; almost all are on M or EMLA 26 with just a few on MM 106 or MM111.  (These are all young... Some just producing their first apple or three.)  The soil on our parcel is generally a heavy clay which requires amendments as well as improved drainage.  I plan to graft a large number of additional cultivars this next winter and am thinking seriously of switching over to G 202 rootstocks (--comparable in size to M 26).  Disease resistance is better, the rooting is reportedly stronger, and it would appear to be more adaptable to a diversity of soils.  The M 26 has certainly been the old stand-by for me, but just about a week ago I was disappointed to find that my Hubbardston Nonesuch and an un-named seedling had developed anthracnose canker -- but only on the rootstock.  Perhaps it's time for me to broaden my horizons?

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jafar
770 Posts
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June 28, 2015 - 11:07 pm

Reinettes,

Welcome to the forum!  We're glad to have you.

I wish I could answer your question because the G202 sounds great from your description.  I look forward to hearing more.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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July 4, 2015 - 5:48 pm

Thanks for the welcome, Jafar.  

It looks like I may be out of luck on the Geneva rootstocks.  Seems there is such a high demand for them that my potential supplier can't guarantee delivery and I'd have to be put on a waiting list.  They wouldn't know whether they could spare some until they assessed their stock in February.  Considering the fact that I'd be getting scion wood in about March (much of it from HOS, of course), I simply can't risk have a fridge full of scions and NO rootstock to graft them to....

I think that what I'll do is put myself on the waiting list for a bundle of 50 (--just in case) and put in my usual order for some Malling-Merton rootstocks to cover what I plan to acquire in scion wood.  If the Geneva rootstocks do come through then I'd have them ready for some summer bud-grafts and would try stooling propagation with the others.  From the information that I've been able to find on the internet, The G 202 rootstock is not [yet?] one that has been patented.  Of course, propagation would strictly be for my own use as I have no interest in, or talent for, commercial activities.

I knew I should start looking into the rootstock availability early, so finding it so difficult to acquire was a disappointment.  Que seroo, seroo....  Patience is a virtue.

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jafar
770 Posts
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July 4, 2015 - 9:53 pm

If they come, let us know how it works out and what you think of them after you've had a chance to try them.

I assumed you were up to something commercial with the rate at which you are putting in trees.  What do you plan to do with all the fruit?

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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July 5, 2015 - 5:43 pm

What do I plan to do with all the fruit?  Ha!  Good question, Jafar!  I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.  I've gotten very interested in cider-making recently, so when I've got some appropriate apples coming on I'll no doubt do quite a bit of experimenting there.  [Claude Jolicoeur's recently published cider book is an outstanding reference; highly recommended!]

On the other hand, I guess I just want to surround myself with with some of my favorite fruits so that as I get older I won't starve to death.  It's nice to have plants on one's property that produce healthful food.  There's also an idealistic part of me that apparently wants a little piece of the garden of Eden.  Adam & Eve really screwed up a good thing.  I moved a lot when I was a kid, so I really need that little speck on the face of the planet that I know is "Home".  When my wife and I moved here to Washington about 15 years ago I told her that we needed to find some acreage 'cause I didn't plan to move ever again.  Now that we've been here awhile I realize that I really need to start getting more fruiting plants established; Time's flying and I'm sure not getting any younger.

--Tim.

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jafar
770 Posts
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July 5, 2015 - 9:44 pm

I can relate to a lot of that.  I bet you are going to want more than apples in the years to come. 

You must be pretty close to Raintree nursery.  I've always wanted to go check them out but haven't had the chance yet.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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July 5, 2015 - 10:18 pm

Hi Jafar.  Do you ever sleep?  You seem to be constantly monitoring the HOS site (--which is quite commendable).  Yes, we're off the SR 508 which is between the I-5 and Raintree Nursery.  Actually, after my wife and I came to Washington and we were looking for some acreage, I worked part-time (circa Feb-June 1999 --I think it was Saturdays & Sundays) at Raintree.  It was a nice chance to meet some of the staff of the time as well as get a sense of the business.  Sam Benowitz is an amazingly generous man (and I like his sense of humor, which one gets a sense of in parts of the catalog).  I suppose that from here to Raintree is probably about 25 minutes' drive.  I don't get out there much, so if I order rootstock I try to drive out to pick it up if convenient.  

Raintree has a guided tour and fruit-tasting on August 15th and another on September 26th.  I'm trying to keep these in mind to finally engage in one of these after all this time.  [I've sometimes thought that it would be nice if HOS could have a fruit-tasting in about August so that one could sample plums and early apples, but the pickin's would probably be a bit slim.]  Raintree is also having another event on October 24th for fruit tasting and cider making (sweet cider, I'm guessing).  I really don't get out much (--one of my wife's complaints), but it would be nice to partake in these given how close they are.  Uhh... October 24th:  that's not the HOS fruitfest, is it?

--Tim

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jafar
770 Posts
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July 6, 2015 - 9:36 pm

Yeah, I try to check frequently because I enjoy it and I'd like to see the forum revitalized after having stagnated for a while.

Sounds like the Raintree tasting is the week after our All About Fruit show, so I hope I can make it this year.  I think organizing a big August tasting would be tough, in part because summer fruits don't keep very well, especially in summer weather.

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Jim LaMunyon
7 Posts
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July 9, 2015 - 9:47 pm

At my previous house, I lost a pear to fireblight.  The spot was convenient, so I replanted with a Cox's Orange Pippin on G11 dwarfing rootstock.  After 4 years, still no problem with the tree.

This spring I grafted Cox's Orange Pippin to Emla 26 picked up at the HOS scion exchange.  So far, it also seems be be doing ok.  It will be interesting going forward.

http://www.thenewfruitgrower.c.....page_1.htm

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jafar
770 Posts
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July 11, 2015 - 7:32 pm

Jim LaMunyon said
At my previous house, I lost a pear to fireblight.  The spot was convenient, so I replanted with a Cox's Orange Pippin on G11 dwarfing rootstock.  After 4 years, still no problem with the tree.
This spring I grafted Cox's Orange Pippin to Emla 26 picked up at the HOS scion exchange.  So far, it also seems be be doing ok.  It will be interesting going forward.
http://www.thenewfruitgrower.c.....page_1.htm

Welcome to the forum Jim.  Glad the apples are working out so far.

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John S
PDX OR
2821 Posts
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July 16, 2015 - 10:44 pm

Reinettes,

Remember that on Saturday August 1st, we have our annual bud grafting class, summer fruit tasting and about 3 other things on the same date.  Check out the Events page on the web site.

John S
PDX OR

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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July 18, 2015 - 12:10 pm

Summer fruit tasting?  I wasn't aware.  Thanks for the mention, John; I'll have to see if my wife and I can make it!

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jafar
770 Posts
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July 18, 2015 - 5:08 pm

Reinettes said
Summer fruit tasting?  I wasn't aware.  Thanks for the mention, John; I'll have to see if my wife and I can make it!

Just to manage expectations, the fruit tasting aspect of it is informal and limited, not like the All About Fruit Show.  It will be things that are ripe in the arboretum or brought potluck style to share.

But it is absolutely worth coming to, especially if you haven't been to the Arboretum yet.  I hope to see you there.  Please say hi if you see me.

This is a free event:

http://www.homeorchardsociety......l-potluck/

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John S
PDX OR
2821 Posts
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July 19, 2015 - 12:30 pm

Where do you live Jim? Historically, the PNW has had almost no fireblight.  There have been some reports recently, perhaps as our weather is getting hotter.  Isn't that a bacterial disease?

Thanks,
John S
PDX OR

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Jim LaMunyon
7 Posts
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July 19, 2015 - 10:00 pm

John:

The tree was at my previous home in Northern Utah.  Recently, I moved back to Oregon and am looking for property with space for a orchard in commuting distance to Corvallis (also in my price range, as homes are overpriced, compared to Utah). 

We fought fireblight in that 'Anjou' pear for several years before it succumbed.  My neighbor's 'Bartlett" also died of fireblight a couple years before my pear succumbed.  I also had a 'Red Sensation' pear planted on the South side of the home that is still doing well, with never any problem.  In fact, I took 'Red Sensation' scion from that tree and grafted on a rootstock for planting here in Oregon.  The 'Anjou' was in a bit of a low spot on the North side of the property, and winter severity over several years probably stressed the tree. That area (Cache Valley) would get down to -25 to -35 F sometimes. 

I still wanted to use the spot in the orchard, so researched rootstock that would probably do ok if exposed to fireblight, handle the heavy clay soil, and the cold winter temps.  The G11 looked promising for resistance and dwarfing ability, so that was what I used.  Most of the other apples were on M111, and they also did not have problems, but required a great deal of pruning to remain manageable sized.  The 'Cox's Pippin' on the G11 was a bit of a gamble instead of going with a newer, disease resistant variety, but I had always wanted one in my orchard.

...........Now if I can just find someone in the Willamette Valley to get some 'foxwhelp' apple scion, Ukranian Almond ('Bounty' and 'Nikita's Pride') scion, and peach ('Nanaimo' and 'Mary Jane') scion for my remaining root stocks for bud grafting, then I will be set for planting next spring.....

....and yes, it is bacterial:

http://extension.usu.edu/files.....ght-08.pdf

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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16
August 4, 2015 - 10:49 am

Just as a quick post script to this topic...

I received a catalog yesterday from the company that I had contacted about accessibility of Geneva rootstocks and found that, although the Geneva 202 apple rootstock is not patented, there is still a 25 cents-per-rootstock royalty charge for each one sold to non-licensed growers.  Thus, these are not royalty-free as the M and EMLA apple rootstocks are.

Just FYI.

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
781 Posts
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17
October 14, 2017 - 12:51 pm

Reinettes said
I think that what I'll do is put myself on the waiting list for a bundle of 50 (--just in case) and put in my usual order for some Malling-Merton rootstocks to cover what I plan to acquire in scion wood.  If the Geneva rootstocks do come through then I'd have them ready for some summer bud-grafts and would try stooling propagation with the others.  From the information that I've been able to find on the internet, The G 202 rootstock is not [yet?] one that has been patented.  Of course, propagation would strictly be for my own use as I have no interest in, or talent for, commercial activities.

I knew I should start looking into the rootstock availability early, so finding it so difficult to acquire was a disappointment.  Que seroo, seroo....  Patience is a virtue.  

You also said elsewhere last year that you had found some G 030. But from Where?

Like you I was also active during a period of time with NAFEX, but dropped out like everybody during the attempted transition they had to eliminate hacking etc. (just like HOS before changes to the new server transition etc.) ..HOS being in good shape now.

I am also currently active in the northern districts of fruit growing and with that I have tested and recommended a wild hybrid apple cross as pear interstems to join apples to pears. (ie. to Bernie: hybrid malus 'palmetta')   For which is my original accomplishment starting out from Fairbanks Alaska and now SW Washington. So in furthering this hybrid form of apple I would like to test more apple scion combinations to make sure the hybrid is really malus and G 030 seems to me like a good choice and therefore would like to trade something for it in case nobody else sells it.

The Palmetta hybrid is early to flower and kind of half way between "willowy" as you said before, from the malus baccata parent. It is also part dwarf from both parents, other side being a spreading form of apple of high elevations of Rhine river as in past NE Austria. With that it may be possible to use 'palmetta' on 'G 030' with the final product of a blight resistant scaffold to which pear buds can be grafted on.

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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October 15, 2017 - 4:16 pm

Hi Rooney,

It was a bit startling to find this two-year-old column brought back up to the present.  As to the G30 (Geneva) rootstock that you enquired about, Raintree Nursery (i.e., Sam Benowitz) began to offer the rootstock in their catalog only about 2 years ago, I believe.  The G202 rootstock that I wanted I was never able to acquire, apparently due to extremely high demand in the commercial sector.  I assume that, so far, those in the commercial apple orcharding community have been as pleased with its performance as the earlier trialers of the rootstock were in New Zealand orchards.  

I acquired a few G30 rootstocks in 2016 specifically for use in grafting triploid apple cultivars, given the fact that some triploids show incompatibility with EMLA 26.  (Nowhere can I find a specific list of triploid cultivars that have shown this reported incompatibility.)  These grafts, of course, are just experimental.  My primary concern with the G30 rootstocks is that there seems to be some anecdotal evidence or concern that the grafts are not sufficiently strong and that older trees after some years of growth may snap at the graft in windy situations.  This would definitely require a strong staking system for both rootstock and growing scion.  In my area we have the occasional nasty windstorm that has brought down the occasional 150-foot Douglas Fir, so..., as I say, It's experimental.

AS TO the "wild hybrid apple cross" that you mention, what kind of experimentation have you done in grafting pears to apples?  It is usually "much easier" to graft two genera together than to cross them sexually.  Two very different things.  

You seem uncertain as to whether the material at hand is truly of the genus Malus.  I would suggest that you enquire around among some of the researchers who might be doing molecular work in the genus Malus and -- if they are amenable to it -- send them some material that they could include in a molecular study.  They should be able to determine whether the DNA material in question is truly Malus, or a rare anomalous outcross to something else.  

Good luck with that pursuit.  It sounds like a lot of future testing is still required.

Reinettes

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Rooney
Vancouver SW Washington
781 Posts
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October 16, 2017 - 11:48 am

Reinettes:

Thankyou, I see G 30 for sale in the fall sales brochure!

I understand your concern of it (G 30) not being very tested as far as breakage reports at the graft and your windy site etc. Maybe it would work out well if you saved G 30 as a scaffold trunk which where in the future there will be no worry of one big total loss of the triploid cultivar. 

AS TO the "wild hybrid apple cross" that you mention, what kind of experimentation have you done in grafting pears to apples?  It is usually "much easier" to graft two genera together than to cross them sexually.  Two very different things. 

I am not that into that area so much as to experiment with material I have to place orders for in gene-banks. When I have lots of access to free scions of apple rootstocks that we see at the grafting event volunteer tables each spring I simply take and try on pear. The hybrid I came across was as a northern visitor in Fairbanks with another grafting buddy residing in Alaska who had some of that. Then ever since of 5 years ago with his being by far the greatest pear type of apple I kept getting going forward with it.

In this venture I included some pure malus baccata to pear, but the odds of consistency were just as poor as other apples were. At which point Bernie in Edmonton had been asking others for ways other than less cold hardy winter banana, and the rest is history. We report it to be hardy and better growing than WB! 

My biggest concern is what has been a big problem finding in Alaska that seedling malus baccata (non selections) has delayed failures or delayed tree death as a rootstock to other apples. When that happens somebody took charge to select better cultivars from those seedlings for future sales at the Fairbanks scion exchanges.

My first priorities of interest are stone fruit. With hardy apples being my second, I admit to crossing malus species. In this case "malus" is easier to cross to other malus (ie. m baccata x malus domesticata) than the above (previously) reports of "grafting associative" problems. 

I also take some interest in pear and a priority to hardy chokecherry and hardy sweet cherry (if I can get it). Pear is like prunus in that they will graft much easier (the way you said) than "crosses made".

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Deborah Nelson
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March 19, 2018 - 10:31 am

I live in southern Oregon near Medford. 3 years ago I planted a new orchard of approx 30 apple trees exclusively with semi-dwarf Geneva rootstocks. Some background on my orchard: it has really nice clay loam soils and is planted on a northeast facing slope to delay blooms. at our 1500' altitude we get late spring frosts. Trees planted on 9' spacing within rows and 20' spacing between rows, with a hugelkulture/compost trench down the center between each row. Some of the trees grew so well that they reached 12' in height by the end of their second growing season.

Most of them are on G30, but I have a couple on G935, and G222.

What I can tell you so far:

they don't sucker

they have a very nice horizontal branching habit= less training

very precocious, some of them had a few fruits in year 2 from unbranched whips

appear to be disease resistant

trees are staked, but so far haven't had any problems with breakage, probably because they haven't started fruiting heavily yet. Hope to get enough fruit to taste this year.

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John S
PDX OR
2821 Posts
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March 19, 2018 - 10:53 pm

Good info. Sharing helps others.

John S
PDX OR

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Reinettes
Lewis Co., WA
426 Posts
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March 21, 2018 - 9:34 pm

Hi Deborah,

Thanks for your recent post.  I remain interested in anyone's relatively "local" results with any of the Geneva rootstocks here in the PNW.  I've grafted a few cultivars onto G30 rootstocks, but these have generally been triploid apples, given that there are supposedly some (unspecified) incompatibilities between EMLA 26 rootstocks and triploids.  So far, so good, but the grafted trees are still young.

I hope that you'll keep us posted on your experience with the Geneva rootstocks that you're using.  

A couple or 3 years ago, I surveyed what was available in regard to the "new" Geneva rootstocks for potential use locally and decided that the G202 seemed best-suited to my situation.  Unfortunately, the commercial demand for them was so great that I couldn't get any "scraps" from the commercial supplier.  I'm guessing that it must be good (--it has done swimmingly in New Zealand trials--), but overall the Geneva rootstocks are still unproven in the long-term.  Any observations on performance of specific Geneva rootstocks will be helpful for the rest of us.

Reinettes

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